New Event Structure

[Red Adder]

What a complete and utter ****-up -

No one seems toknow what was the reason for the changes, what the changes are and how those changes should actually be implemented.

Ridiculous !!!!

BOF is becoming a total joke, and fast making the sport one.

[PKJ]

I'm sure someone will tell me , but what's wrong with this?
1) We have Level 1 Events (or National/Championship Events) - courses in age-classes, and with a Senior Controller. Personally, I don't think the new structure has enough of them, but that can be sorted out.
2) We have Level 2 Events - courses generally not in age-classes, except where organisers think it's justified (maybe November Classic, White Rose, Croeso). All of these count towards the Ranking List and need at least a non-Senior Controller from another club. They can be Classic, Middle, Urban, Sprint, Night, Long....and cover all existing C3 and many existing C2 & C4 events.
3) We have Level 3 Events. These don't normally towards the Ranking List and don't need a Controller from another club, but could have a Controller from the same club. The main point is that the club know who they're aimed at and what they're trying to achieve. They could be evening, informal, novelty events, mainly for people who already orienteer and who usually don't mind some 'rough edges'..or more formal events, with a Controller from the same club... or events specifically aimed at attracting new people... or 'bare-bones' events...

As for what we're going to get, I'm confused, really confused...

[awk]

I'm sure someone will tell me , but what's wrong with this?

Absolutely nothing - that's pretty much exactly what we proposed and intended!

Don't understand your reply awk. L3, Local events attract locals. L2 events are regional, whether you like it or not..... and attract people from the regions immediately adjacent to the club's event. L1 events are national. Why awk can't the thinking just be that simple?

Because plenty of what you refer to as 'local' events attract people from nearby regions, and plenty of what are currently C4 (and indeed in some cases C3) attract pretty much only those from the same region, indeed those from immediately adjacent clubs. The City of London race in a week's time is attracting people from all over the country, but it certainly isn't a 'national'/L1 event. (It's also attracting a whole range of experience, including novices, if the race thread is anything to go by, but is not really an L3 event either).

The designation is very much about organisational standards, not about who might turn up. Who might take part is down to how the club sells its event, and is not something to determined by a central governing body. Thus, if you want to target your L3 at local beginners and L2 events at clubs in neighbouring regions, that's fine and makes a lot of sense, but that's up to you, not BOF or anybody else. What BOF's concern should be is that events are organised to recognised minimum standards, and that people can get some easy indication of what those standards are by what level they are at.

PKJ provides an excellent summary of the intentions of the guidelines. The **** up, if there is one, is that these have become subsequently distorted through the filter of inadequate publicity.

[Adventure Racer]

We felt that the list of things defining level 2 (preprinted maps, SI) was EXACTLY what would encourage people into the sport. We should NOT designate the events designed to encourage newcomers as third-rate.

Newcomers should be encouraged with good quality events, and good quality events should be level 2 - end of story.

BUT

There should be scope for informal events, where people can try out new formats, novices can plan etc., new mappers can map, someone can bung out a few controls for what's essentially an open training event etc. Like you said, these sort of events are usually NOT suitable for beginners, and can be quite off-putting. We need a label to tell people that - and that's what level 3 is.

Hmm, by your criteria MADO is almost a level 2 event (preprinted maps, SI), so suitable for newcomers, but unfortunately by only offering a limited range of courses and events being controlled by people who aren't even grade 3 Controllers they must be level 3 events. Apparently we should stop marketing them at newcomers as not being up to the job

[NeilC]

Most people now seem quite clear which events should be at Level 1 (ie championships etc) and which should be at level 3 (pin punches, odd formats, very informal etc). Awk keeps stating that organisational standards define the boundary between level 2 and level 3 but I'm not sure that the review defined these standards. Graeme is suggesting that any half-decent event with a controller should be level 2. Fine but this brings me back to an earlier point -what is the incentive for a club to register an event at level 2? If Level 2 is so broad then any event from SSD to a MADO event could be included and so the level itself tells prospective punters little about the event. As others have mentioned getting people to an event is largely about marketing not by tagging it with a label. A level 2 event may (will?) be a ranking event but how much of a selling point will this be if there are so many of these around. So at the moment clubs may be faced with the decision as to whether to register as level 2 and find a controller from another club or register as level 3 and control internally if at all. We know what will happen. There is talk of using more experienced controllers for the more important level 2 events but no organisational criteria have been defined to allow anyone to check that this has happened. Rules group could come along and define such criteria (eg any event with more than 4 courses must be level 2, those offering age group championships must have a grade 2 controller etc) but then members of ERG will come on here and say that committees have ****ed up their proposal. There are clearly uncertainties in the definition of the different levels which someone will have to sort out. But who?

[Mrs H]

I think the problem here is the grouping together of certain criteria to differentiate between L2 and L3 and that is what is sitting uncomfortably.
Graeme talks about "good quality events" and "Informal events" like they are mutually exclusive - and yet that is what I would most enjoy staging.

If I was still in charge of MADO (which I'm not) I wouldn't want them to be classed at L2 events because MADO is the epitome of a local event - the fact that people are prepared to travel over 50 miles to them is incidental. I would also not have wanted to have had to conform to any criteria laid down by BOF as to how that event should be run - I genuinely don't think BOF can tell me anything I don't know about running a successful local event. And remember MADO is both an introductory series and a highly competitive league.

Also there is the element of expectation over reality (the definition of success in my book) I'd rather people were impressed at the "quality" they were getting at a L3 event than disappointed at what they were getting at a L2 - even if it meant fewer people came.

[HOCOLITE]

Please put me straight but as I understand it The British Schools Score is a L3 event. However The British Schools is I presume a National due to the requirement for a level 1 controller despite the courses being a limited number of TD courses. But surely MADO is level 2 as there is every TD except 1. What are urban sprints surely level 3 because they are other.

There is obviously a need for a classification other as we are now getting an increased range of 'professional' events that are not 'colour coded' or 'badge events'. Of course this is speculation as we still await our focus.

[Mrs H]

But surely MADO is level 2 as there is every TD except 1.

I think you'll find TD 4 is not there either.

Obviously in the absence of the Focus article we can only conjecture. I had blithely thought that L2 would be all the old C3s and C4s and L3 would be everything else (locals informals, different formats etc). I suppose my question really is what changes, if any, would there have to be to a MADO event if it was designated an L2 instead of L3?

[greywolf]

There is obviously a need for a classification other as we are now getting an increased range of 'professional' events that are not 'colour coded' or 'badge events'. Of course this is speculation as we still await our focus.

well you won't be getting much clarification from Focus...(which reflects the general problem that no-one's quite sure what's going on)...apparently the ESRG "recommendations were adopted by Council in Jan 2008" and "further info on the BOF website"...however when you go to the BOF website to find Graeme's revised Guideline A

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/d ... GuideA.pdf

it says clearly "Standard level events replace what were previously known variously as regional, district, badge, ranking and colour coded events. The increased quality of all but the smallest events make distinguishing between them unnecessary. Competitors should expect a good level of serious competition, organisation and well planned courses."

which however runs completely contrary to what it says in Focus: "all currently registered C4 & C5 events will become Local Events"

Also the revised Guide A suggests the names of courses will be shuffled somewhat, whereas Focus says "the existing names to designate TD have been kept".

And the key point is unclear - who gets to decide whether an event is L2 or L3? Is it down to the clubs to work out where we think our events fit, or will this be judged top down by BOF or the regional associations (e.g. by giving a list of criteria - "if you don't have a G2 controller you can't be L2" etc)

[greywolf]

L3, Local events attract locals. L2 events are regional, whether you like it or not..... and attract people from the regions immediately adjacent to the club's event.

maybe you'd think differently if your nearest "immediately adjacent" region was 250 miles away? you can't use geography and/or numbers attending for distinguishing levels of events without throwing up major differences between the north of Scotland and central England...

MOR have a number of events coming up, from a 2-course kids/beginners event next saturday, the maps for which are already on-line, to the Culbin CC plus full length classic races mentioned in other threads. Under the original ESRG proposals they would be L3 (Local) and L2 (Standard) respectively, with the latter event contributing to the new rankings system.. but now, as far as I can tell, they'll both be lumped together as L3...and IMHO, any system that can't distinguish them (but no doubt will count plenty of TD4 bramble nightmareas as L2 or even L1) is pretty worthless...

[distracted]

The problems that seem to be arising are all because people are trying to map pre-existing boundaries to new boundaries. Everyone is clear where the level 1/2 boundary lies as the level 1 events can be, and have been, clearly and explicitly defined.

So where does the level 2/3 boundary sit - what indicators could we use? Summarising previous suggestions seems to give:

- Quality - you'd expect a Level 2 event to be of a certain quality, and "independently controlled", but there's nothing stopping a Level 3 event offering electronic punching, overprinted maps etc seeing that has now become the norm... Can't see this working on its own.

- Courses - you'd probably expect a Level 2 event to have a wider range of courses, but can we draw a set boundary? Similarly, can't see this being the only indicator.

- Expected audience - this perhaps links in with the Regional/Local tag - you'd probably expect a Level 3 event to attract a group of people only from the immediate area (say <50 miles), whereas a Level 2 event could potentially attract from a whole "Area" e.g. the south for the Nov. Classic, or from across the country for something like a city race.

This would make:

- the MADO initiative - Level 3
- Oxford/London/York/Warwick and other urban races - Level 2
- local series of park sprints - Level 3
- Kent Night Cup - Level 3
- Culbin colour-coded + classic courses - Level 2

But it's the 'borderline' events, like a bog-standard colour-coded event, where this indicator could be a bit hazy... But in these cases does it actually matter what level an event is? - it might be there are certain issues with rankings etc, but ultimately I'd have to say "who cares"? As long as someone - anyone in fact - can turn up to one of this type of event and run a course that suits them then why would they care whether it falls neatly into a bracket?

One major plus-point of the new structure should be that every other event, between the local introductory and the big championship, should be able to accommodate everyone. From the bog-standard colour coded to the large regionals like the November Classic, everyone from complete novice to world-class elite, could find something at that event that suits. Ultimately we want to get more people out there experiencing and enjoying our wonderful sport!

[RJ]

It would have made so much more sense just to change the old Regional/Badge event into a colour coded course structure, and to allow ability based competition. The rankings could have followed on. The C4/C3 structure could have been collapsed into a single tier.

But oh no.... we had to have a total review and produce a hiatus of indecision.

The badge event structure was suffering because so few people were entering particular classes, and the level of competition was therefore inadequate. All created because fewer people are orienteering than a decade ago. So.... in a decade when numbers are back up there again we will have a review and decide we really should have age class competition at L2 now as the numbers running the turquoise pink course are horrendously large.

First..... be sure what your problem is and THEN suggest a solution!!

[HOCOLITE]

One major plus-point of the new structure should be that every other event, between the local introductory and the big championship, should be able to accommodate everyone. From the bog-standard colour coded to the large regionals like the November Classic, everyone from complete novice to world-class elite, could find something at that event that suits. Ultimately we want to get more people out there experiencing and enjoying our wonderful sport!

MMmm. Where do the levies sit with this. It used to be the case that you could do a colour coded orange for less than a JM2 because the levy was less well I think that became the reason once maps were preprinted and there was electronic punching, the only other difference was eligibility for badges. I think now it just depends on how many take part so L2 and L3 are the same. We still have to get the junior only events sorted re levies. I suspect that will take a while now this new structure has created a bit of a stir.

By the way I reckon the credit crunch explains why we haven't got focus. Members are receiving them and being asked to read it and then send it on to another member, thus saving on production costs

[PMG]

And then there is the poisoned chalice of implementing this!

One issue will be that Fixtures Group has used a "rule of thumb" that all Regional events had to be 100 miles apart. With more events moving into the Level 2 category this will become less practical. What do "Nopers" think the "rule of thumb" should be used in the future and certainly from 2010?

(Some) Clubs are very possessive about event dates and the numbers they want to get at their events, so we need something to work to, albeit that some may view this as rather mechanistic. So, please, none is not an answer, because believe or not, we do try to plan out a sensible calendar, avoiding clashes if possible, within the many contraints that exist round the scheduling of events, the most difficult being that Easter moves each year.

Taking a slightly diferent view of Level 2 and Level 3, clubs should be deciding if they want their event to be Level 2 or 3 as they know what "market" their event is aimed at
and what their event will provide and allow and is suitable for. ( 2nd runs etc).

The Level 2/3 issue of is also in a bit of limbo anyway until the "Ranking Working Party" reports.

So I am seeking a bit of feedback as we have a National Fixtures Group meeting on 18th October 2008.
In terms of the future 2009 is already a "done deal" as clubs have already planned out most of what they are doing and appointed officials and it is not practical to ask them to change to the new Levels (in my opinion) but , 2010 is "on the drawing board" other than Level 1 and we will need to start to develop a firm plan for 2010 at our meeting.

Peter G - Fixtures Chairman

[awk]

The C4/C3 structure could have been collapsed into a single tier.
But oh no.... we had to have a total review and produce a hiatus of indecision.

If you look at Graeme's guidelines, as quoted above, you will see that is what we came up with in terms of the 'standard' events. Quite simply, Focus is wrong, at least in terms of our recommendations (I've no idea if somebody somewhere subsequently changed things, but my understanding was that our recommendations were finally accepted in full).

I repeat, this "hiatus of indecision" is to my mind completely down to the **** up over publicity. Our expectations, and the resulting guidelines, means that the mapping of the old system on to the new system in terms of the regular events, is simple. C5 = L3, C3/C4 = L2, C2/C1 = L1 (allowing for the fact that there will be fewer of the latter). The difference is that the L1/L2/L3 allows street races, sprint races, middle distance races etc. to be more simply included, and may result in a small number of events which clubs would originally have put into L3 moving to L2, or vice-versa (depending on what the club wants). But in terms of the current standard structure, the transfer should be straightforward (and is why Grade 3 controllers should be controlling L2 events).