JWOC

[Axel]

Neil,

I beg to differ most of the juniors at 18 level selected for JWOC had to run up to 20 or 21E to qualify in the FCC races so pot hunting has nothing to do with it. The other point I am making is that we have been as a orienteering nation slow to embrace Sprint, Short and Middle Oing especially making it available to all.

[NeilC]

I really don't know how much better other nations have embraced the sprint and middle format, I assume that you have the appropriate data to support your claim that we have been particularly slow. As to making our races available to all, well I have not yet come across a closed event in the UK and have been able to compete in all the championship events. My point was that various people, yourself included, made the comment that there was no incentive to go to the sprint race at Scarborough (for example) since no championships were available for the non-elite classes. In reality that event produced one of the best, and competitive, sprint races that I've encountered and thus provided a very good reason for the aspiring elite to go and test themselves against the best in the country. M/W18s can certainly compete with the best in this discipline as the boys showed at Warwick.

[Gnitworp]

The other point I am making is that we have been as a orienteering nation slow to embrace Sprint, Short and Middle Oing especially making it available to all.

There was evidence to suggest, at WMOC, that some Brits had more experience of 'Sprint' type orienteering than many Scandos, especially the urban element, gained by many via the Nopesport City Series.

[harry]

I haven't checked any of these dates they're just from memory (or what people have told me..) but for example the Trondheim Sprint Cup has been going since about 1992 and
Sprint first appeared in WOC in 2001 and JWOC in 2005 (as unofficial then 2006 official)

Sprint as in 12-15 min winning time (WT) etc didn't really start to take off in the UK til about 2001-2003 which was about when the first British Sprint Champs was held but it has grown in popularity, no. of races, no. of maps/areas the last 2-3 years.

Likewise "short" (now "middle") first appeared in WOC in about 1995 and we didn't get a British Elite champs short race til about 1998 although there were some initiatives before that like the AROS series (Scotland) and Xanda sports series (East Mids) and things like the JOK chasing sprint and Cambridge sprint o (12-25 min WT).

NB At senior level "Short" was 25 min WT, Middle is 35 min WT and sprint is 12 min WT. At JWOC the "middle" distance is a bit shorter 25-30 min WT. Qualification races for all disciplines are generally a bit shorter than finals.

[Patrick]

Likewise "short" (now "middle") first appeared in WOC in about 1995

1991, in Czech. Yvette got DQd after winning the qualifier for having a single pinmark outside the relevant box on her card. Them were the days.

Patrick

[harry]

ah i knew it was the one in Czech.. '95 was Germany right?
That's even worse if it was '91 and we didn't get British Champs in it til '98.
Is that true?

[Kitch]

Middle was first contended at WOC in Czech 1991 - an unknown quantity to all concerned the tesion at the pre-start was palpable. I started my heat on the same start time as Jorgen Mortenson - I was aware that he was absolutely bricking it - imagine how I felt !

anyway - subsequently one Brit. took middle seriously - Stan
in 1993 he took 4th place - seconds off bronze.
a few years later Stan gave a presentation to the squad pointing out that here was a discipline in which GB absolutely had the potential to do well. We have all sorts of scraps of terrain that can be used ofr middle racing and training. (the argeement at that meeting to go away and identify lots of new middle areas came to naught)

If that is true of Middle (and I think it is) then it is even more true of spint / short

[Kitch]

An opinion from the 'inside'.

after experiencing how tough JWOc is and what level you need to be at to get on the podium, the buck really has to stop at the athletes. To go out and train, prepare, improve when the coaches aren't there to show them the way and hold there hand.
i think juniors need to push each other along more, train together more, race against each other more, race the seniors more.

Now that Doug has said this I feel I can now share my version of the Talent Pathway

1 - get off yer arse
2 - train said arse off

[harry]

If i remember right Stan's big concept for short was "don't rush"
Bit different to what one senior team member told me before the sprint race at europeans this year "run like f* and don't f* it up!" ..hmm

I totally agree with what Doug is quoted as saying just above. When I was a junior a bunch of us would try to mix it with the seniors and regularly scare a few of them a bit and get in amongst the top 10 (not as sucessfully as Kitch etc did when they were juniors mind..). I don't feel as scared of any of the current juniors as I should. The juniors should be getting in there and scalping us seniors - man am I going to regret saying this...

[Big Jon]

"The juniors should be getting in there and scalping us seniors - man am I going to regret saying this.."
I hope you do regret that! Cos it'll show that the juniors are up to racing against top seniors .... and beating them on occasions.

Thinking back to the stone age - I think I only ever ran M19 (as was) at Championships - all other events were M21... and expecting to get in there and mix it with the seniors, whether or not they were GB senior squad or not.

Learning to race is the key - producing the best possible run in the races that matter - learning to love the pressure of a big race and using it productively rather than either tightening up and physically/technically going to pieces or doing headless chicken and racing off like a wild thing hoping to hit controls.

[I can remember my second "Eurojuniors" in Switzerland where I lost about 5 minutes on every second control - run hard, hit one control, run harder miss the next one, etc etc ad nauseam! I think I finished about 2nd last]

[EddieH]

Well Jon it can't have been that bad as it led to a WOC silver

[Julz B]

Now that Doug has said this I feel I can now share my version of the Talent Pathway

1 - get off yer arse

You have no right to say that, as you have no real idea of how hard myself and many other Juniors train and the amount of time and effort we put into the training sessions.

Have you seen any of our training programmes??
Do you know for example all the training sessions I do??

I feel the answer to this is No, so don't critise us when you don't know anything about mine and others training.

From being at JWOC I have learnt that other countries have much more confidence in technical terrain, due to their areas back at home. My technique has always been the problem, not my fitness.

I try and do a lot of techinical training but living in the South doesn't help as the terrain is very easy and you can get away with making mistakes, like other areas in the country. Where as in Sweden, if you made a single mistake it would lose you a lot of time and it was very hard to recover that time you lost.

Also in all the races throughout the week I had to adjust my speed to my map reading skills, which meant I was going pretty slow in the forest . The top 10s tend to be very fast and have amazing navigation skills.

It was only my second time in Sweden where as it was over 5 for some of the other girls. The Scottish girls get great oppurtunities to go with the Scottish Squad to Scandi, but being in the SWJS (I think this is correct about what I'm about to say) they can't afford to, and similar squads near where I live don't go away often either so it's not a matter of changing sqauds.

There is the option of going away with your family or friends, but you have no coaches with you which means it's not a great learning experience and that you don't have much real guidance.

Anyway these are my views, argue against them if you wish, but I hate the fact how some people have the cheek to comment on training, and basically calling us lazy.

[mharky]

I think you missed the point. I think Kitch's comment was directed at the "Talent Pathways" business bullshit comment. BOF, Regions, Clubs and even Individuals like to come up with schemes and plans using bullshit phrases rather than doing what counts; training.

He does know how hard juniors train, off the top of my head I can think of 10 recent JWOC'ers who have frequently been to his Tuesday evening trainings.

The problem with nearly all GBR juniors who go to JWOC is that they are not physically, technically or mentally up to the standard of many other nations. We sometimes have some good runners. We sometimes have some good navigators. We normally always buckle. 2004 was really the only recent year where we had some people who could mix it up at the top. Where you finish is exactly how good you are, yes we all made silly mistakes and could have been a lot higher, but in reality we couldn't have been a lot higher because we make silly mistakes. I think the most significant problem we face is actually the mental side. Although we aint the fittest or the best navigators, we still do worse than we should. Maybe it's because we know we can't navigate like the Scandis or run like the Easties a

GG made himself an awesome orienteer living in the South and the Midlands. He trained on technically average areas yet is an awesome orienteer. It can be done, it just takes real focus and determination to make the most out of each training.

[Guest88]

Well even GG - for his first JWOC, his results were 100th in the Classic and 39th in the Short, so I guess it looks like Julia is doing pretty well if she is coming 41st and 56th at the same age.

Have to say that JWOC in Sweden for me - it's like training a class in G.C.S.E. Mathematics for a couple of years, and then giving them the Cambridge mathematics finals exam instead of their G.C.S.E paper, and comparing their results against people so experienced. It's a good challenge, but I don't really see the point in getting over-analytical or beating ourselves up over the results and I don't see how it is possible to analyse to what extent it is down to any lack of training or natural talent.

So Mharky and others have suggested that you can train for it - so my question would be that suppose you live say in Cambridge, and you don't have a car. You've got 90 minutes allocated 3 times a week for technical training including getting there and back (I believe in Sweden you could get into some pretty cushy terrain in this time). Which areas would you go to? What would you do?

For me, I don't see how it is possible even with a huge amount of effort, whereas if I lived in Sweden I believe that just from lazily turning up to the races and puntering around I would after 6 months be *so* much more confident in that terrain just from the pure experience of spending that time running in it, without actually doing any training at all.

[Becks]

I think again I need to point out to Julia that it's not the simplicity of the terrain that allows her to make mistakes, but the lack of competition pushing her not to. Julia is an excellent runner, miles ahead of anyone in her age group, and without anyone close, she can afford to make mistakes whether it's down south on Long Valley or up the in the Lakes or Scotland.

I actually take offence to her comments about Kitch, who's certainly been highly useful in planning training, and giving incredibly knowledgeable advice to a large number of recent JWOC athletes, and instrumental in more than a couple of their performances. As a very talented athlete who's given me and others a huge amount of support, I was pretty offended by that comment.

None of that is a criticism of the junior's training, and I'm pretty sure nothing anyone else has said is a criticism. It's all about this strict system we've imposed of selection from a stupidly young age (selection I highlight to add, that Julia was left out of for two years, as was Anne Edwards), that roots out most of our competition for our top athletes before they start to have any world class aspirations. I think it's actually biased against southern youngsters, who in a sweeping generalisation tend to have superior speed to those who get ready access to the Lake District and Scottish terrain, but fewer technical skills at the age of 14. Our juniors really are the best they can be internationally in the present climate. This year's group in fact are one of the most committed and talented I have seen in my admittedly short 7 years of coaching. If we want them to raise their game, we have to push them to do it by changing the way we organise races for them in the UK. Or we expect sub potential performances with our lower numbers, decide we can't change this, and focus on development as a young senior, and travel to large races elsewhere, have large training camps where all levels of squaddie race together. And in large I'm talking 30+ people, which we could easily do with all our top juniors, A teamers and development people present. At the moment we do neither, and I'm positive if we tried to change both, then performance at both levels, junior and senior, would increase. And if it's a cost of funding, just look at the Swiss tiered system. Developing athletes will pay to go on camps where the costs aren't prohibitive, and everyone there will benefit.