JWOC

[geomorph]

We've got a lot of high calibre juniors who gave their all, and I bet were gutted by any mistakes they made, or by running well and seeing somebody post a time 15% faster.

None of those who participated in GB jerseys are going to be sitting at home feeling sorry for themselves. All will be determining how they are going to improve, and executing that plan.

So, taking in mind Gross's valid alternative viewpoint, what are WE going to do to help these gals and guys get even better? Do we accelerate the building of cohesive talent pathways, expand the number of training camps and the number of participants? How do we simulate Nordic conditions in the UK? How do we speed uptake of initiatives proven at an individual club level to raise everybody's standards - without the overall performance norm being much higher then it will always be a big leap onto the international stage.

Senior Elite results & WMOC showed that we have a good edge in urban sprint; how do we maintain that (JWOC sprint was not urban!) and not let the rest catch up?

[Kitch]

2. Who's to say the results aren't a success? certainly not the 99.9% of us who have never been good enough to make such a team. Even finishing last demands a pretty high standard.

0.1% calling
As a former international, both junior and senior some comments.

Hector's result was good, apart from that the results returned by the team in Gothenburg would not have satisfied me as an athlete. I know one or two of them and don't expect they are best pleased.
I generally never was satisfied with my international performances - except once or twice. It goes with the territory - unless you win a medal.

thankfully no-one ever did say say to me - "Ah well, never mind at least you did your best" they would have got short shrift.

Nobody appreciates condescending platitudes from people who don't know what they are talking about. So stop with the "Gross is a nasty man - don't you listen to him"
Gross was team manager for numerous senior internationals - he did a damn good job - he knows what athletes expect from themselves.

And
facts

Candyman - being an hour or two late with his JWOC report

the long and relay races were on Saturday and Sunday - the report did not appear until Monday, beaten to the press by a report on WMOC
- the leader for which I object to by the way:
"More Success for the Great Britain Team at the World Masters in Portugal"
British athletes yes - but not a Great Britain team - individuals attending an open event.

[Kitch]

Geomorph - good post - thankyou

what sets our most successful athletes apart is their pure class as runners.
British International orienteers have always been technically very strong - our programme of junior international training camps has a major part in this.

Beyond this the challenges are.
Specialist terrain
(scandinavia and similar) here there is a % to be gained in years of subtle experience and knowledge around - just "how things are".
(Witness the breakthrough year for Britain - WOC 1993 - USA technical terrain, but neutral - as familar to us as it was to the Scandis and the Swiss.)
Some seek to address this by moving to Scandinavia.

Pure athleticism - counts in all international races - comes to the fore in continental terrain - and now the Long race - getting on with route choices. But always, always confers the advantage of having a little extra to spare to ensure the navigation is spot on.

Competition driving precision
Being closely matched with other competitors requires you not only to run fast and eliminate "mistakes" if you want to win but also to get it exactly right - exactly right - shave off the subtle corners, hesitancies, always spot and execute the very quickest route. If you can get round and win on sloppy technique then your goign to get a hiding when it comes to the real competition.
again some seek to address this by moving to Scandinavia.

Why do we do well at sprint ?
Sprint largely removes 2 of these main challenges
The element of special terrain is minimised in most sprint areas. Parks and streets are much the same the world over and provide more neutral ground.
Also there is far less subtlety in the routes on a sprint - so if you chose the right route then you can easily execute it well. There is no need to spot the fractional gain because they are often not there. Being precise is far more granular.

[Patrick]

Leaving aside Gross's personality (generally a good idea!) and the need for rapid reports on the BO site, I definitely take issue with this:

2. Who's to say the results aren't a success? certainly not the 99.9% of us who have never been good enough to make such a team. Even finishing last demands a pretty high standard.

Utter nonsense. We are supposed to be a major orienteering nation with a well funded squad structure and plenty of coaching resources available. Many of the nations we compete against have have far fewer resources (in population and/or financial terms) and can still produce top quality performances. Teams with top 15 results include Austria, Ukraine, Estonia (including a medal), Lithuania, Italy, Belarus and New Zealand, but not team GBR. The French girls had three top 5 placings, while our highest female result was 37th.

Before the races people were talking in terms of several top 15 or top 20 results, so you can't describe this overall set of results as a success. Nor would I expect the athletes involved to be doing so. The ones I know are motivated and ambitious and won't be satisfied with performances that fell below the standards they set themselves, and I'm sure the rest of the team is made of the same stuff. Some will know that they have more years to improve on their JWOC performances, and hopefully have gained some insight into what is required.

One thing that did stand out from the results was how consistent the top runners now are, and how big the time gaps are between them and our top athletes when the latter don't have clean runs. Our top couple of guys and girls are competitive with the best Scandis at the easier stuff (as evidenced by results at JK, Spring Cup,..), but in the tougher, more technical and more pressured environment there's obviously a gap that has to be addressed.

Patting people on the back and pretending everything's fine and dandy when they themselves know it isn't doesn't help anyone (and is actually pretty patronising when you think about it). Just to reiterate, I admire the talent and dedication of those on the team (as well as the support crew), but I know that many of them are capable of much much better.

Also:

3. I haven't heard anyone making these comments about the adult results. This is surely a better measure as junior results are bound to be erratic as these are young athletes who are still maturing.

Actually, Gross regularly makes similar comments about the grown-ups. It's just that people tend be less protective of them and don't overreact quite so dramatically!

Cheers,

Patrick

[Patrick]

Kitch, great stuff - said what I wanted to say and more, but much pithier.

Your comments on competition levels reminded me of this quote from Becks on another thread.

the one thing that Scandi Juniors in particular (and increasingly Eastern European nations) have is large amounts of competition domestically - they're more experienced at high end racing and coping with the pressure than our UK athletes, where our top W20 can lose over 4 minutes in mistakes and half a shoe in a selection race, and still get a top three placing

There we have the problem in a nutshell. One possible solution is to match the 20s against the 21s in all events below championship. It seems to work for the Eastern Europeans, and would also help keep the 21s on their toes.

Cheers,

Patrick

[SeanC]

mmm, I've re-read my post - please ignore most of it - not that well thought through.

I'll stand by the opinion that BOF news on the front page of the website should have a positive spin as this has a publicity impact.

I never said Gross was a nasty man . Though I shouldn't have graded his opinion.

Overall I give myself a D.

[SJC]

There we have the problem in a nutshell. One possible solution is to match the 20s against the 21s in all events below championship.

The problem with this idea being that there are very few 21s in most events below championship level. The average M21 course seems to consist of a mixture of 18s and 45s. Hardly highly competitive.

[Becks]

I have been thinking about this week and I think it should apply to all races, including championships, but maybe excluding full length classics (which we have so few of anyway). Not ideal, but a step in the right direction perhaps?

[RS]

Well said Gross, Kitch and Patrick
Think Marcus-weatherburn owes Gross a BIG apology.

[geomorph]

There we have the problem in a nutshell. One possible solution is to match the 20s against the 21s in all events below championship.

The problem with this idea being that there are very few 21s in most events below championship level. The average M21 course seems to consist of a mixture of 18s and 45s. Hardly highly competitive.

Unless you introduce a handicap system.....

[Kitch]

please add an irony icon

[Olsoran]

Your comments on competition levels reminded me of this quote from Becks on another thread.

the one thing that Scandi Juniors in particular (and increasingly Eastern European nations) have is large amounts of competition domestically - they're more experienced at high end racing and coping with the pressure than our UK athletes, where our top W20 can lose over 4 minutes in mistakes and half a shoe in a selection race, and still get a top three placing

There we have the problem in a nutshell. One possible solution is to match the 20s against the 21s in all events below championship. It seems to work for the Eastern Europeans, and would also help keep the 21s on their toes.

I couldn't agree more.

I had this half drafted before Patricks post but along similar lines.

Like plenty of others I've seen JWOCs at first hand as a spectator so whilst being disappointed for the guys this time around, if I'm honest I'm not at all surprised at the results. The level of competition there of course is of the highest quality and unrelenting, and nothing like any races any of our juniors ever get in the UK. I certainly had no idea how different until I saw it at first hand.

But I'm also not surprised because over the last year or so we've seen the relentless level of regular competition at first hand over here in Norway.

60 x D16s (not D15/16 but D16) at the recent O-Festival
50 teams in the high quality D13-16 relay.
400 starters at the regular early-season Oslo City Cup evening events where the starts are at 15 second intervals and everyone (12s-70s) runs the same 3km course. Not just great sprint race experience - great race experience, period.
At least 20 in most junior classes at pretty routine local events.

But these are not just numbers. The vast majority of folk are of a good to very good standard (in fact they don't seem to have bad orienteers ) and are racing. Don't think It's always racing in the highest quality terrain either - the Oslo City Cups are small, sometimes scrappy city areas, where you get might get Lundanes, Hausken or Nordberg mixing it on the same short course with Joe Punters like us.

[geomorph]

Let's not forget then that W21 already can compete in a large highly competitive field of M45/50 on a week in week out basis.

So all you W21/20's out there, is that sufficient? Can we raise the bar even higher?

But what do we do for the fellas?

[Mrs H]

Well perhaps we could allow some of them to self-fund thelmselves to fill the vacant GB spots in the World Cup Races for starters - that would be good top class racing experience :

[Big Jon]

Maybe we Brits are slow learners.....
Maybe juniors should be encouraged to:
plan more events
do more mapping
take trips abroad on their own
all the above to help them learn more about all the facets of orienteering.

Maybe this will help them to race better - doing more of the same technical exercises probably won't.

Whatever we need to do it isn't just a continuation of the same methods we are using now.
I don't claim that the above will work, but lets encourage some of our juniors to try some of them and see what happens.....