Mobile Phone Scanner

[RJ]

There was an interesting item on Breakfast TV this morning about a German supermarket using a customer's mobile phone to scan the products' bar codes.

There may be a development idea there for urban O. Areas that are sensitive to having equipment interferred with, and where timing and competitive O are not paramount the mobile phone could be employed to show progress around a course. It could be used in urban areas where introduction to the sport is the motivation. Just about everyone has a mobile phone with a camera. You would probably need some custom software to put on the phone. A lot more people might respond to the sport if they are using a piece of kit that they are quite familiar with.

[Mrs H]

I can't believe you just wrote that I've been thinking about my october Compasssport piece (August is already written in my head and hopefully june's is in the post) it was going to be about Urban races and I was trying to think about ways in which we could dispense with control watchers - by making the control so ordinary you would only notice it is you knew what to look for. i thought bar codes would be ideal with hand held scanners for the competitors (I was toying with the idea of having Tesco carriers as kites ) I also thought about taking photos of the control sites somehow - mobile phones would be a great way of doing it - i might even get myself one

[geomorph]

Bit of a sledgehammer for me. I am quite happy with my 12 year-old 2nd hand phone thanks. Its a bit like government-enforced digital TV. Good fun for gadget lovers. The beauty of SI dibbers is the simplicity at the user end and the lack of bulk.

All the problems experienced with SI and EMIT failures are still there, and of course much more difficult to resolve - just try getting your money back from a mobile network provider for a bad bill. EMIT and SI are very responsive in comparison.

Now there are signal emitting barcodes out there.... and that would work with modified EMIT

[Nails]

better still maybe 'a lot more people' should be introduced to 'treasure hunting' or 'adventure racing' instead... this is a sport not a joke.

[Familytaxi driver]

I don't have a mobile phone with a camera and wouldn't want to upgrade just to be able to participate.


Would they be lent out to the "have nots?" Would they be expected to be returned?!

There's food for thought in there though, just needs refining somehow.

[Nails]

or forgetting about

[distracted]

The key to this is having the 'cheap' part of the system out on the course so it doesn't matter as much if it goes missing. I've seen the idea of using RFID tags floated several times before - essentially these work in the same way as an SI card - small electronic circuits that cost about 5p each to make are activated by an incoming radio signal, and then send back some information. I'd think/hope you could get an RFID reader smaller than a mobile phone, then the competitor would be carrying the more expensive bit of kit... The system is effectively contact-free EMIT in reverse.

This still doesn't solve the problem of distinctively marking the control site - yes you could have the RFID tag separate from a flag/code but (as Nails is trying to point out in his own inimitable way) you don't want people searching around for the 'control' because they can't see a marker... From a financial point of view, it's nowhere near as bad if a kite goes for a walk rather than an EMIT or SI unit. From the point of view of the race and the competitors, however, it's just as bad.

[SeanC]

We had a discussion about GPS watches a while back and it lead to the conclusion that if GPS and orienteering maps could be integrated somehow, this could lead to control-less orienteering - or at least SI/Emit less orieteering. If you know where the competitors went to, you don't need controls. This would solve the control marshalling problem on street events.

Given that GPS is available in the more modern mobile phones, perhaps street events and street maps available on the (mobile) internet could be combined to track competitors on perhaps google maps. I did a quick google on the subject and found this bit of free software which you can use to plot your progress using a GPS enabled phone and google maps: http://free.3dtracking.net/home.aspx

Conceptually it isn't a long way from this to an application that plots routes verses time per phone and compares with expected routes (eg control sites). No controls needed, and because the phone is beaming location back to some server somewhere, another application could display live competitors positions for the benefit of spectators.

That's the theory, but whether the economics would ever allow this in such a small sport I'm not sure.

[RJ]

...... i thought bar codes would be ideal with hand held scanners for the competitors.....

One of our club members was toying with the idea of using handheld scanners. Apparently they are used by security guards as a record of their journey around their beat. Various sites are marked with bar codes and the handheld scanner records the fact that the site has been visited and the time the scan was taken. Downloading into a computer gives the usual detail about route etc. The downside was the cost of the handheld scanners, somewhere about £60 I think.

This thread shouldn't be seen as an alternative to electronic punching..... just as a tool for development of the sport. Better that new potential members are introduced to an aspect of the sport. Being able to use the urban areas where most of the population live is a great starting point. Interest people in the sport and then let them try the sport with SI.

I agree with Nails comments to the extent that there is no point in going through this exercise if those people are not then introduced to proper O. It has certain elements of the sport..... just as running kids around a school playing field has its limitations. They are just means to an end.

[Mrs H]

I don't think anyone is trying to turn the sport into a joke Nails - just trying to think of some ways of dispensing with a small army of volunteers (the Stockport watchers must have been perished by the end of the day - it was so cold and windy).

as Distracted says - they key is to having the cheap thing out in the terrain - I only used the idea of Tesco's bags as they are of no value and no pikey would bother to nick it if he saw one dangling from a railing - but if you came round the corner and that was exactly what you were looking for then you'd know you were in the right place. scanners, cameras - you are all getting too hung up on the detail - there must be someone out there bright enough to come up with a viable alternative system not just rubbish the idea.

[distracted]

If you know where the competitors went to, you don't need controls. This would solve the control marshalling problem on street events...

Really strongly disagree with this - from my point of view one of the fundamental aspects of the sport is that there is a marker at the control location to confirm to the competitor that they are in the correct position.

Imagine introducing a newcomer to the sport. "So here's the map, you have to visit these points marked on the map in the order they're marked, choosing your own route etc..." "What will I find at each point?" "Nothing, if you've read the map properly you'll know you're in the right place. That device you're carrying will tell us whether you got there or not."

What? How ridiculous does that sound? To me as a newcomer that would be extremely off-putting. From the point of view of someone who's learnt how the sport works, no controls would put an additional layer of difficulty on top of what there already is to learn as a novice. Especially as one of the key aspects of promoting urban/street events is to bring a new group of people into the sport. You're immediately throwing them in at the deep end - not at all welcoming to what is a relatively complex sport to start with.

[SeanC]

ok, I'll rephrase this, with GPS you don't need SI or EMIT. You could still keep the control flag, which is the cheap bit and for street races make that vandal proof somehow (hanging it high, making it less obvious etc).

[Patrick]

We had a discussion about GPS watches a while back and it lead to the conclusion that if GPS and orienteering maps could be integrated somehow, this could lead to control-less orienteering - or at least SI/Emit less orieteering.

I have a rather different memory of this discussion, at least so far as what was concluded.

Cheers,

Patrick

[Wayward-O]

Just a few thoughts on the ideas in this thread . . .

1) Using mobile phones is an interesting thought, but what technology is used to record the 'control'? Is the technology manufacturer-dependent? Would this result in charges on your phone?

2) RFID. I like this idea, but the current readers that incorporate timing functionality, memory, etc. are large, expensive (>£200) and are user-initiated - i.e. to read a RFID tag, the user presses a button on the reader.

Both the above have the advantage of putting the technology in the competitor's hand and nothing of value in the terrain. In an urban setting, this could be a square board, painted white/orange withh the RFID tag/barcode mounted on the board. These could be mounted onto buildings or possibly on a short pole mounted in a container of concrete (a bit like some temporary bus stop signs).

3) GPS. This technology is now quite cheap. I've recently bought an iBlue GPS logger, which cost me <£40 on eBay from China (including postage). These small units log position and time, but present no information to the user other than a LED indicating that a satellite fix has been achieved; data is downloaded to a computer via USB and the trace an be reviewed on Google Earth. In addition, another system would need to be used for Start and Finish, so SI, EMIT or a system similar to that used for marathons would be needed alongside the GPS to provide the overall time for the competitor. Also, GPS alone would not give splits without a lot of post-processing.

If a GPS logging function could be incorporated with either SI or EMIT so that the competitor unit (e-card) holds both GPS time/position data and control idents / times (on the same timebase) and with post-processing software able to 'flex' the GPS data to accurately pass through each control on a system such as RouteGadget, then this would be a useful advance on today's systems for 'normal' orienteering.

RFID looks like an excellent tehnology for urban events, but the competitor units would need to be smaller and cheaper and to auto-read the RFID tags rather than requiring the competitor to press a button. Also, RFID could enhance permanent orienteering courses in areas where the reader could be hired (e.g. Forestry Commission woodland areas with a visitors centre).

[mappingmum]

I'm with Nails on this one!