Brown Clee Hill National Event

[Homer]

Brown Clee has a large number of fences. To build crossing points everywhere they could be needed would be a very large job. Some of the longer legs would need multiple crossing points to maintain route-choice. I'm guessing at least 20 or 30 would have been needed in order to reasonably expect everyone to use them each time they crossed a fence.

I would be interested to hear from someone involved in the organisation as to whether they really intended fences only to be crossed at crossing points or whether the 'mandatory' statement (which luckily I only read after I'd run, so no dilemma) was just to satisfy the land owner?
Either way, it doesn't really make for a very fair competition. Especially when the results are to be used to select the British World Champs team.

[DM]

but the organisers had to ensure there were enough 'Whistles are compulsory' signs as well as having the manpower to enforce it on the start line!

Mine's always tucked down my leggings, no-one ever checks it there or asks me to get it out as it were, and it gets washed after each race

[Mrs H]

It's all this whingeing, pre-event hassle and post-event lack of profit which lead me to predict with some confidence that you will be hard pressed to find any club prepared to put on a major event in the not too distant future.. i mean what's the point? Everyone just moans, BOF and the landowner take all the proceeds and you wear out all your best people. You'd be much better off putting on a couple of colour coded events - more happy people, more money, less work. I think I feel a CS article coming on

[SeanC]

Nopesport is a bit like news, it's mainly the negative stories that provoke a reaction. I suspect even those posting here were in general happy with the event.

Following your logic Mrs. H. The solution to the big event problem seems to be*

a) pay for professional organiser(s) for big events to take much of the hassle away from club volunteers
b) orienteers pay more for the event so clubs organising big events are rewarded with a big pile of cash.
c) pay less levies on these major events (and more on smaller) so clubs are rewarded with a big pile of cash.

All require more money from us. It would be interesting to hear how much extra competitors would be prepared to pay per event to achieve this.

*assuming BOF funding is at same level as now.

[EddieH]

I take your point Mrs H absolutely. No-one likes their volunteer efforts being criticised and I am sure that most people will have enjoyed the event and appreciated the work done.

Nonetheless this IS a really important issue and the solution IS utterly simple - mark the maps properly - everyone will quickly learn what the markings mean if they are used.

[andy]

a) pay for professional organiser(s) for big events to take much of the hassle away from club volunteers
b) orienteers pay more for the event so clubs organising big events are rewarded with a big pile of cash.
c) pay less levies on these major events (and more on smaller) so clubs are rewarded with a big pile of cash.

d) Don't perform unnecessary tasks and delegate to people willing to do one/two smaller task(s).

[seabird]

We've been here many times before. I think the solution is even more simple than marking the maps, which people can still ignore and is almost impossible to police.

Put controls on mandatory crossing points. The new si cards will cope with the longest courses, and I assume emit would do the same. A bit more work for the planning team. However I recently planned a set of courses involving 20+ such crossing point controls overall - and it worked without too much extra effort.

If one not very fit M60 can manage that single handed surely it's not too much of a problem.

[EddieH]

For long distance races, (certainly qualification for World Champs) route choice is a very major part. Prescribed crossing points can largely kill this, so the control on every one is not the answer unless the software can be made to check that appropriate crossing point(s) have been used.

When there is a culture of using them correctly and there is no ambiguity they do work - witness elite runners disqualifying themselves in urban sprints for crossing not to be crossed boundaries.

[Gross]

Event had a planner, controller & an IOF advisor.... no excuses really:)

[Oldman]

It's all this whingeing, pre-event hassle and post-event lack of profit which lead me to predict with some confidence that you will be hard pressed to find any club prepared to put on a major event in the not too distant future.. i mean what's the point? Everyone just moans, BOF and the landowner take all the proceeds and you wear out all your best people. You'd be much better off putting on a couple of colour coded events - more happy people, more money, less work. I think I feel a CS article coming on

Unfortunately, sometimes many posts here are seen as whingeing (including yours Mrs H ), but I dont see these ones as coming into that category.

The event was basically well run and I certainly enjoyed it and made a point of thanking officials I met on the day. These issues afterwards are legitimate expressions trying to comment on event standards with a view to improving them for the future. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see. I certainly felt I got value for money on the day: a good area and good courses. And whether such big events are put on or not is a matter for each Club. And as to saying that BOF and the landowner take all the proceeds, that's a result of the budgeting, surely? And if the landowner fees are high, it's a clear market situation - accept the rate charged or refuse to buy.

[seabird]

Eddie

If crossing points are mandatory then there is no route choice - unless two or more crossings could be used as alternatives to each other, in which case the units at the different crossings can be programmed as the same control. If there is only one available crossing point the planner may be able to introduce route choice on the leg culminating in the mandatory crossing, and the leg leading from it.

I think it is too much to expect that we will ever arrive at a culture of total honesty on this one, with all runners being be self-regulatory. The temptations are too great, as RG has demonstrated all too well.

[IanD]

With this particular event, the problem appears to have been a lack of communication between the planner and whoever wrote the final details. It is very clear that the planner intended fences to be crossed other than at marked crossing points - see for instance leg 11-12 (77-68) on course 25, a route-choice leg which using the mapped crossing point would have reduced to a long track run followed by a dog leg.

Fortunately for me, by the time I first encountered a fence, I was well into my course, and after a few moments hesitation, I decided that I must be misremembering the final details, since the purple line on the map clearly went straight through the fence. So I didn't lose more than a few seconds; my sympathies to those who did. It would have been interesting to see what the jury what have decided in the event of a formal protest.

For some, this would have been the third event in 24 hours, all with different details. Final details are very useful for giving people information they need to reach the start line, but information for completing the course must be on the map.

[IanD]

I have apologies to make .... the confusing wording of the final details in which we said competitors must use the fence crossing points. On some courses, there were fences to cross that had no obvious crossing point and this caused confusion and possible delay.

I enjoyed the event and I would like to thank HOC for putting it on. No event has ever got everything right.

[harry]

t's all this whingeing, pre-event hassle and post-event lack of profit which lead me to predict with some confidence that you will be hard pressed to find any club prepared to put on a major event in the not too distant future..

Nopesport has become a very negative voice. It wasn't always like this, once upon a time it was much more lighthearted and social. If the forums have evolved into a more negative voice this is because of you/ we, the users and the type of posts we make.

I hope that organisers who dare to read nopesport don't take things too personally and instead just take the constructive criticism. The Brown Clee event seemed to be largely very well organised. The crossing point issue needs to be sorted out, like Eddie etc have repeatedly pointed out, there are standards for these things and technical committee or whoever should make sure these are upheld in all events.

I don't think we should stop complaining about things on nopesport, it is a public forum and there shouldn't be any kind of censorship. Not sure how much whinging achieves tho.. Anyway it's not JUST whinging, don't forget all the positive things nopesport has achieved too; people hear about new events, & get motivated to run them, get themselves a lift there, get motivated to put on similar events, get training advice. + The purple thistle got started, these urban leagues..

[DM]

Harry, tend to agree with you on the negative general tone on here. I've been doing a lot to try and get runners of all types interested in the Stockport Race on Sunday and have noticed a much more positive tone on the non O forums. The Fell Runners one has some really amusing stuff on it , some really quite rude, but in the nicest possible way.

When I saw some of my words quoted back on here about this years Macc Forest event I just laughed because I was able to put one comment on here against a mass of positive comments made on the day and afterwards by email. It's good that people raise things on Nope but let's not forget it is not representative of everyone, many choose to stay silent.