Entry Fee breakdown

[awk]

The problem as I see it SeanC is that the government always see the answer as something to be delivered through schools, including solving all the social ills of the world. As a result, schools are grossly overloaded, and the result is that education (NOT exam cramming!) gets badly overlooked.

What they seem to have completely missed is that children are only in school for a limited time, and that time is already jammed full. They also seem to have completely missed the fact that children learn far more via their families, whatever the form of that family takes. It doesn't matter what a school does, if it runs counter to what the family believes or does, then it won't work.

It doesn't matter how much sport they do in school, if they don't/can't do it out of school, they won't get hooked. And that generally means parental involvement - just take a look at the touchline of any weekend children's sports events.

So, it doesn't matter how much orienteering is done in school, if there isn't parental involvement, it will go no further. Yes, there's always the rare exception, but they are rare and shouldn't be used as model for broader development.

And it gets worse. Because of the overprotective approach in so much of society, children don't even experience 'real' orienteering in school, unless they are very, very lucky (Ulverston, Ermysteads etc.). As a result, when they do do 'orienteering', most children can't understand why or how anybody can enjoy it. Just ask my son's friends at his school. I've even had that in my own school - the "orienteering" delivered on a recent residential made at least one child publicly ask why on earth I can possibly be so obsessed with it!

So, school orienteering can be effective, but it needs a lot else to go with it, not least parental support to experience 'real' orienteering. And a really active local programme delivered by the club, and not just for beginners/juniors. Sadly, I believe that the vast bulk of schools orienteering is singularly unproductive in terms of the development of the sport and is a distraction from where the main focus should be, which is local club activity (not just events!), as I believe the last decade has shown.

By contrast, I think a real focus on university orienteering, in particular support for O-clubs to go places, could reap real benefits.

[Mrs H]

Great post Andy and I agree with everything you say.

I can confirm that my children were actively embarrassed by orienteering at school - which may have had in at least one case the effect of actually putting one of them off the sport to a certain extent ( you know: "Is that what you do at weekend? How uncool is that?")

But in complete contrast MADO has acquired a cult following amongst certain youngsters - who bring along new friends each time which has enabled a school team ( there is no school club and they are not coached at school) from The Chase to gain 3rd place at the West Mids Schools champs behind 2 schools where professional coaching takes place (proper orienteering coaching), and also get 2nd/3rd place in a BSOC year group over the past 3 years (the duration of the MADO experiement)! These children are of course brought to events mostly by their parents who are giving it a go on a regular basis - many of which have joined HOC as a result.

As Andy says we know that schools like Ulverston and King Henry's with professional and highly committed members of staff delivering the real sport can produce main stream orienteers.

But generally speaking I think BOF has got the direction of flow wrong. It shouldn't be out of the schools into the sport - but out of the sport into the schools, after all, can you think of a better advertisment for our sport than our fit, self-confident and independent children? I can't and I sold MADO on exactly that message.

the nopesport aristocracy

[Oldman]

... the nopesport aristocracy ...

Nice one !!

Am I part of the Nopesport gerontocracy then?!

[RS]

Quite agree, Awk. Now to change the topic for the second time! When entering JOK, I noticed there was an option for unemployed at a reduced rate. Is this available at any other events? In the days of paper entries, I remember receiving such requests but can't remember the response

[RJ]

It doesn't matter how much sport they do in school, if they don't/can't do it out of school, they won't get hooked. And that generally means parental involvement - just take a look at the touchline of any weekend children's sports events.

It is hard to argue against anything you have said in your piece awk, and there is a lot of sense to what you say. However, it is the environment that we have to work with, and in. School involvement can work, does work, and can be very productive, and is very productive in many places around the country.

The key to the success is that clubs maintain an ownership for the O that is going on..... yes it CAN be a major commitment and SeanC is right that clubs need to be careful when devoting some time and effort to it. Everything, however, can be progressed in a small and manageable way. Setting up a structure..... school series, access to junior training sessions, series of informal events. All of that can be put in place in a limited way, targetted at a particular group of schools at a specific time of the year.

Parents do follow the kids.... they don't stand on the sidelines for long! You also find that the quality of the junior is higher when they are the ones who are making the choice to try the sport, rather than the kids fetched along 'kicking and screaming' by the active parents!!!

[awk]

Do so agree RJ, which is why I was careful to say that "it needs a lot else to go with it". Where that's being done, I'm sure it will be successful, and all power to the elbows of those doing it.

What I was trying to angle towards though was that the club/uni work can succeed without the schools, but the other way round can't, so the former has to be the priority if starting from scratch, at least IMO. Of course it's better when you've got both, and if you have the resources, you can develop both at the same time.

[EddieH]

Basically where we have superstar committed drivers of whatever initiative is taken things go well just as Mike Rodgers has single-handedly turned round the fortunes of Moravian. One only has to admire and praise these people - I suspect that it is more who they are than which particular route they choose to go.

Every word hat AWK wrote however seems utterly valid to me. Sadly no matter how much child enjoyment you give, unless the parents get involved it is a miniscule percentage that go on orienteering into later life.

That does not mean that it is not worth doing for its own sake though if that's what people want to do.

[SeanC]

Awk wrote

" I've even had that in my own school - the "orienteering" delivered on a recent residential made at least one child publicly ask why on earth I can possibly be so obsessed with it!"

This is different from the experience at my wife's school. In fact orienteering was the most popular activity at one residential course, apparently because it was at night Maybe your school was unluckly? Maybe my wife's school was lucky? Maybe London children are easily pleased, having never seen trees, cows, stars etc?

It seems like we agree schools development is OK, but we need development targetted at other groups as well: families, universities, running clubs, outdoor ed centres etc etc. I can't understand why many don't see the potential of funding BOF so they can help do this. I believe the original plan was for the development officer initiative to be extended beyond schools into these areas that we agree are more important, but our govenment wont fund this. The right development officers could make a real difference, even if it was just helping people communicate, and make life a bit easier for our volunteer heroes. That's just one way - there are others, publicity courses, more coaching courses, grants for local initiatives .... It just takes some cash.

Assuming you can do 45 miles to the gallon, this year's orienteering fuel bill has increased by £35 for every 1000 miles you drive. With this background an extra £5, £10 or even £15 for development looks very cheap if it's used to deliver the "more places" part of the vision, and keep the fuel bills down.

[Wayward-O]

Declaration of interest: I have recently come to orienteering through the interest of my son kindled by the Primary Schools' League operating in West Cumbria. I must, therefore, congratulate RJ and the team who put on these events - this year attracting over 250 kids to each one.

I must say as a parent, though, that there does not seem to be much being done to get the children / parents to try club orienteering events. Many parents will not have attended a schools' orienteering event due to work committments and their kids will travel to the events in the cars of teachers or other parents. But each kid invariably takes one thing home with them - their map - which (if they are anything like my son) they'll insist on showing their parents. Here, therefore, is the vehicle to get to the parents. The maps are invariably printed on one side. How much extra cost would be involved to print (in black) on the other side? A lot of information can be put on an A4 side that could include: A brief description of orienteering and events, a brief description of what to expect at a club (rather than schools') event, a calendar of the next month's orienteering activities in the area and details, contact names, numbers and website information for the local club(s).

Also, from personal experience, it can be daunting attending the first club event. Things that I now take for granted were strange. What we would have liked at those first few events was an information / enquiries point where we could get the simple information regarding courses, e-card hire and use, download, etc. From this perspective, District and Regional events are better than the lower-key local events with their DiY starts, etc.

[awk]

Maybe your school was unlucky? Maybe my wife's school was lucky?

Sadly, from my experience, more the latter than the former, and I'm delighted that she and her children found it so: over the years I've seen quite a lot of centres' version of orienteering ,and it rarely comes up to scratch, although children do enjoy some.

What we would have liked at those first few events was an information / enquiries point where we could get the simple information regarding courses, e-card hire and use, download, etc. From this perspective, District and Regional events are better than the lower-key local events with their DiY starts, etc.

To give credit where credit is due, some clubs do just this (including, I am pleased to say, my own). In addition, some clubs specifically target their lower-key events at newcomers, so they are excellent intros.

[RJ]

- their map ...... is the vehicle to get to the parents.

......an information / enquiries point where we could get the simple information regarding courses, e-card hire and use, download, etc.

Brilliant feedback!! The maps always have the website for results etc shown on them. Perhaps not many kids go online to check their results, but if they do then they can find details of the upcoming events being run by the club.

The informal events have recently had DIY entry on the night systems as well as DIY starts etc. This frees up the organiser to recognise those who are new and to devote some time for explanation etc. It is most important to try and make those turning up for the first time comfortable.

[distracted]

The "print info on the back of map" idea is a good one, and I've seen this done at several local events. It is very useful to the newcomer who might not want to travel particularly far to their next event, which usually means they'll stay within that club. If the information is there in front of someone on the map then you've already done the job, rather than relying on them to check results and then look further for the next fixture.

The important thing is getting information over as simply and quickly as possible, to keep interest up and get people along to more than one event! A bit of information about the sport/club/fixtures on the back is greatly preferable to a website address tucked away somewhere on the 'course' side, where it's more likely to be missed.

I guess this is something that could well fit into the "best practice" guide when using informal local events to attract newcomers. The other thing I'd say is to have more than one person there to explain the basics to those new to the sport - all you need is a small rush of people and one person is easily overwhelmed.

[Mrs H]

I guess this is something that could well fit into the "best practice" guide when using informal local events to attract newcomers. The other thing I'd say is to have more than one person there to explain the basics to those new to the sport - all you need is a small rush of people and one person is easily overwhelmed.

Like we never thought of that I think you'll find it's all in the good practice guide (my bit of it anyway)!

Many helpers were available at each event to mentor newcomers
through the pre-start, start procedures and to debrief after their courses.

On the other hand it's so hard to find these pages on the BOF website they are virtually useless, If you go to Club Development all you get is pages and pages of Clubmark and child protection stuff.

[distracted]

I think you'll find it's all in the good practice guide (my bit of it anyway)!
On the other hand it's so hard to find these pages on the BOF website they are virtually useless...

Exactly my point - "the" good practice guide seems to be a collection of documents from various clubs, none of which is labelled as such. Wouldn't taking the main points of every initiative's success and combining them into one ever-evolving document for other clubs to see be far more useful?