Premarked maps - who pays?

[EddieH]

We have our rather poorly advertised 3 day Spey in May this weekend. With the British up here just 2 weeks ago and the Scottish Sprint Champs and a SOL the following weekend how many people can we reasonably expect? If the weather forecast for the weekend is great will this increase? If it looks wet I am 100% certain it will drop significantly.

How many maps do we overprint? If we overdo it we will make a total loss on our events. If we underdo it people won't be happy

I expect that we will print enough, and I hope we will at least turn a small profit, but is the system we now have right? - and there is also the environmental waste of expensive waterproof paper.

I suspect that in the future we will have an expensive high quality printer which the organiser has to lug to every event along with a generator.

However when this is not available is it not time that we encouraged pre-entry with a discounted entry, (and in regions with big fields a guaranteed start slot).

I see no reason for those who don't wish to/can't pre enter to complain. They are withholding their decision to attnd until they see the circumstances at the time - why should the organising club take the massive hit that BASOC took last autum when it rained? With printing being possible about 3 or 4 days before an event its not as if you need to decide massively in advance.

[andy]

We have our rather poorly advertised 3 day Spey in May this weekend.

I only found out about it 2 or 3 days ago. Sadly I'm running the Great Edinburgh run on Sunday which means I can't easily make it up North which is a real shame as the weekend looks amazing.
Had I known about it months ago I might have made alternative plans

a bit more on topic: I'd say print more than enough - you can still use the excess maps for local training and what-not.

[Mrs H]

We ran out of maps at MADO on Saturday we had record numbers on the most beautiful day of the year and had to recycle maps - no doubt RJ will be on in a second telling us to print on site but as these were A3 that was not an option - we've printed before for A4s and it was not too much of a hassle (If it's dry). I assume you are not talking normal pre-entry events here Eddie?

It was only after we got back from BOC that i saw the May in Spey and said to Mr H if we were retired i would have suggested we spent the month in Scotland, starting with BOC, spey, stirling and Scottish National Roll on the day

[greywolf]

I only found out about it 2 or 3 days ago.

Brooner wrote an article about it which has been on the Nopesport home page since the 16th, and the two BASOC events have been in the fixture list for months

[RJ]

There are several options of course.... and as a club staging an event with such a quandary you must choose the option that will leave the event financially secure. I don't agree that you should place any burden on the competitor.... to decide early to enter, and then risk a cancellation and loss of entry fee. The event and organiser must find a way to cope with the problem and find a solution. We are short of competitors.... so they come top of all considerations.

I would suggest that waterproof paper is not essential.... perhaps even an A3 map is not essential. If you can print on paper, use a plastic bag, and keep the map to A4 then the easy solution is to print to demand. If that is not going to work then a more complex and perhaps more expensive solution will be needed. There are choices.... and some people/clubs are making the sytem work in their favour. Undoubtedly you will make your choice!!

[geomorph]

...is it not time that we encouraged pre-entry with a discounted entry, (and in regions with big fields a guaranteed start slot).

I see no reason for those who don't wish to/can't pre enter to complain. They are withholding their decision to attnd until they see the circumstances at the time ....

tee hee hee. in events with advertised pre-entry, make the 'cost' of eod for competitive classes a time cost - make 'em manually plot their course (they'd still beat me so this is not a self-centred cunning ploy). And yes it is multi-flawed in both concept and execution!

[EddieH]

I knew Roger would come in with a predictable harangue, but I fail to see how offering anyone who chooses to let us know in advance that they are coming a lower fee should make anyone upset.

The facts are:

we do NOT have a suitable printer.
with our geography (tiny population within 1 hour, majority of catchment over 3 hours) the numberws are uterly unpredictable.
The area we are using is too far from our area to realistically lookm at using unused maps.

I have decided to hand draw the yellow and orange courses and have enough maps for any likely entry for the TD5 courses - I just pray that the club doesn't make a loss.

With regard to the late advertising, the event has been scheduled since last year, but environmental reasons have meant starting on 4 other maps before settling on Uath Lochans. We really wanted all the weekend's events really close to Grantown. Not that Uath Lochans isn'r a great area.

[Snail]

I'm with Eddie here. It's totally up the the club to take a pragmatic decision on what's best. In the circumstances outlined an indication of likely entries can make an enormous difference to the event - and thus club - finances. And yet those clubs that have tried to get such an indication without offering a discount haven't had much success, so it seems to need a financial incentive to get people to act.

I don't think that Eddie necessarily suggested competitors had to pay in advance. Just something like: 'If you email the organiser by x date, and then actually turn up to run the indicated course, then not only will you be guaranteed to get a non-recycled and non-hand-drawn map, but you will also get a £y discount on the entry fee.'

If the club wants some form of safeguard against no shows they can choose to ask the offenders for full or partial payment in arrears / give them a surcharge on the next event / name and shame them on here etc

[EddieH]

Thanks Snail.

I suppose ultmately my point is hinted at in the title of the thread - SOMEONE pays.

RJ seems to hold a rather common view that clubs are trying to rip people off right left and centre. Well my small geographically detatched club certainly is not.

We pay for the capital equipment which gets more and more with every new device (e.g. laser printer), and we need to pay to keep our maps up to date and produce new areas.

If events are in very real danger of running at a loss how can we do this?

Why should those that only bother to go if the sun's shining not pay a little bit more exactly so that costs can be kept down?

[RJ]

RJ seems to hold a rather common view that clubs are trying to rip people off right left and centre. Well my small geographically detatched club certainly is not.

I certainly don't agree with you that I am part of a 'rip off' culture.... far from it. I advocate NO surcharge for late entry or for entry on the day. Just one fee regardless... and then we design a system to cater for whoever turns up. That means printing to demand. OK, so you can't afford a printer. Will the SOA not loan you the money, or perhaps even help you out of the situation?

Far from a 'harangue', I was merely stating the options. You have possible outcomes and it is up to each club to make the best of the situation.

The competitor is the key to all the outcomes. I am firmly of the opinion that we must cater for their needs, particularly to get them to turn up. There is no point in making an excuse that the organiser can't do this or do that..... if we are to survive as a sport then we must protect the competitors we have, and encourage as many new ones as we can find. If you think that.... effectively.... charging them more for turning up on the day (giving a discount if they pre-enter!) is going to ensure your financial stability then that is what you should do.

Eddie, I'm not pointing fingers, or calling names.... Each club finds a way to deal with their problems. Those that don't, lose members and become defunct. An active club is a healthy one. I wish you all the best..... it's time SOA helped you out I'd say!!!!

[EddieH]

Roger I don't read what I said as saying that you were part of any rip-off culture, rather that you consider many clubs to be of that ilk.

Of course the competitor is utterly vital - without them there'd be no reason to put on events. However, just as vital are the officials as without them there would be no events for the competitiors. In our case we have a pretty healthy participation and new membership situation at present - what we do not have is a large number of experienced orienteers willing and able to be officials. The more you load each job with the fewer will volunteer.

Regarding discounted fees, how many people turning up on the day a really going to be upset that they don't get them? Frankly if anyone doesn't come on principle do I want to put in the effort of the event for them?

[andy]

it's time SOA helped you out I'd say!!!!

Has the SOA been asked for help though?

[Paul Frost]

It's not a matter of the SOA not helping out, it's the fact that colour laser printers don't like playing in the damp low/no power locations that we hold events.

The only real solution to the problem is being able to print maps on demand at the event.
Until a printer is made that can cope with the conditions, we are stuck with over producing maps or running out.

If the club has it's own printer (they are cheap enough now for that to be an option, if not essential) then you can leave the decision as to how many to print until hours before the event. I was printing maps at 4pm for a 6pm start time last night.

EckO have been asking people to email if they intend coming for the last 18 months, but very few do. The regulars assume that you know they are coming, some don't read their email about the event fully and the rest, who knows!