British Sprint Championships

[Mrs H]

Well you wouldn't get a finish time with an SI card if the chip had failed or fallen out (as happened with one of my daughters') and it wouldn't register in the box either because there would be nothing to register. I don't see how the system can be criticised for not doing more than SI (which it actually does in most cases) the question is does it do less?

I am no particular fan of emit but I think it beats the hell out of old fashioned pin puching and hands free is the business.

there may be problems ahead as card batteries wear out - we'll have to wait and see - but I think we need a bit more evidence before that shows up.

Homer - that is obviously a very different situation and lies firmly at the feet of the event organisers.

[Gnitworp]

I don't see how the system can be criticised for not doing more than SI (which it actually does in most cases) the question is does it do less?

Wasn't criticising - just asking a question, as I have one of the very oldest Emit Cards that I'm seriously considering replacing before BOC.

[distracted]

Ah you are all too high tech - the more technology the more there is to go wrong - I have a Version 2 card...

Without the comfort/distraction of scrolling bars i'm a little more careful to get a back up punch - hence my re-instatement after apparently missing a control in the heats

Something that I've argued, and seen argued before - having no feedback as to whether the punch has registered or not, from the card (no display) AND from the unit (no light) forces you to punch correctly - then there can be no arguments. The "improvements" in technology have allowed the non-correct/sloppy punching techniques because there's a way of checking you've got away with it; if you don't check correctly then frankly you deserve what you get....

As for people's cards failing, resetting themselves, display locking up etc - it seems that's also a problem only with the newer cards - more technology, more to go wrong. I've heard of quite a few v3 cards doing funny things now, whereas the only problem seen with the older cards is the battery dying.

Gnitworp -> "Yes, but can you get a finish time if your battery fails?"

Yes, you can - provided the event provides a secondary timing system. The electronic punching systems were never designed to time races - they had the role of a control card, to check that you'd been to all of the correct controls in the correct order. What would happen if the SI box placed at a remote finish failed? - same problem. At a World Champs/World Cup I'd expect an independent timing system; maybe something a bit much to ask for most events though...

[EddieH]

I use EMIT a lot and have my own card. I am basically happy with both systems , but have always had a concern that the thing that is likely to fail with EMIT is in the competitor's hand.

If that fails, assuming no manual timing, your race is destroyed - definitely not something I want to happen at WMOC or BOC.

With SI the most likely failure is in the forest - If that fails it doesn't make a huge difference to any individual.

[andy]

I'm actually gobsmacked at the vast range of failures of emit over the weekend.
It astounds me that we accept a system where the majority of its points-of-failure affect a single competitor. I heard a lot of people last weekend (top elites included) worrying their way to the download praying they hadn't mispunched / had their card wiped.

SI cards fail very irregulary - MrsH example is the first I've heard of actually. Problems with SI are generally only when a unit (at a control) fails, which more often than not affects more than 1 competitor, and can be easily accounted for.

I won't even go into ease of punching and punch feedback...

As for arguements of losing/breaking your SI card/emit brikke, that's always been the case. I know I've watched in horror as my control card has floated down a river... All systems are on a level playing field on this one.

Ahh what would nopesport be without a good old emit vs SI thread

[graeme]

if you don't check correctly then frankly you deserve what you get....

Indeed. And if you do take the extra second to punch correctly at each control, it'll only cost you 20 or so places.

So, since its my responsibility, how do I check the battery in my BOC hired card?

[GML]

Be warned - checking the scrolling bars doesn't help if the controls are so close together that the bars are still scrolling from the previous control when you (mis-)punch the next one. This happened to my daugher on Sunday between the final control and the finish - consequently she got a run-in time of over 40 minutes (time she took walking back to download)!

[Scott]

I sent Marg to collect the EMIT cards and she was told by the official that they didn't have enough back-up cards to go round

Really? I went to get one for the final (seemed like a good idea after hearing about Angry Haggis' DSQ in the qualifiers) and they had a plenty big reel of them at enquiries - though I guess that might be because nobody else was bothering. It's fairly poor form if they really didn't have enough to go around.

[Adventure Racer]

The backup should be there for the very rare occurrence that something goes wrong - if it is being relied upon on a regular basis (as seems to have been the case this weekend), then there really is something very flawed with the technology. On the basis of ~400 people running at the sprints and the reports just on here of technology failures, that's a failure rate of at least 1%, which I'd suggest is totally unacceptable. The point isn't to use the backup system to record your control visits, and to have the electronics as an added feature if it works.

I've actually defended Emit on here before now, but I'd suggest from what I've seen at the weekend, the first nail has now been put in it's coffin. The issue is that for the example of SI failing Mrs H mentions above, it is obvious when at the control that you haven't got a punch, so you can do something about it (it's also an extremely rare failure, and one which I believe has been solved with v6 cards). With the Emit failures described here it seems that the evidence at the control is that the system is working properly, and it's only later you find it's failed. On that note, I was looking at the bars in the heat, but in the final I didn't look at them at all, simply relying on the flashing light on the unit, which has the advantage of ensuring you've punched correctly when at the control rather than finding out you haven't when already running away (and also solving GML's daughter's issue - but then I always lay my card flat in the finish control and leave it there for a little while anyway).

[Harley]

if you don't check correctly then frankly you deserve what you get....

Indeed. And if you do take the extra second to punch correctly at each control, it'll only cost you 20 or so places.

So, since its my responsibility, how do I check the battery in my BOC hired card?

Being very nervous of emit due to its lack if 'instant' feedback and its seemingly well deserved reputation for being flakey - I take the time, at every control, to put my brick (why do the call it that? ) in the right way around, get a backup punch, and then look at the scroll bars (when they decide to appear) and finally remind myself I should be looking at my map.

I would be glad to lose only 1 second at each control, in reality I suspect it could be 4-5 secs and even 10-15 when I have to go back and have another go. So whats that? around 2 mins on a 20 control event?

With SI, I punch, I see the light and I go. I've never mispunshed due to SI technology failure, because 'it does what it says on the tin' nothing more, nothing less.

I haven't purchased an emit brick as I'm hoping they'll go the same way as 8-track tape and other crap technologies.. My main issue is that it seems to have lost sight of its core objective, which is to record the time you visited each control. During a race, I don't need a screen to tell me my splits to each control, or what my next control number is (its on my control desc) any more that I need to know my biorhythms or my mother-in-law's birthday.

SI has it; small, unobtrusive, reliable.

[EddieH]

Quote: "but then I always lay my card flat in the finish control and leave it there for a little while anyway)."

Am I not right in thinking that your time is recorded when you remove the unit from the control - if so leaving it there seems a bad idea.

Regarding the red light, I understand that this happens as soon as the unit recognises the card, not after writing to it - therefore there is a VERY small chance of seeing the light and not recording a punch.

[distracted]

Being very nervous of emit due to its lack if 'instant' feedback and its seemingly well deserved reputation for being flakey...
to put my brick (why do the call it that? ) in the right way around, get a backup punch, and then look at the scroll bars (when they decide to appear)...
My main issue is that it seems to have lost sight of its core objective, which is to record the time you visited each control.

1) How many times does it need to be said - You don't need the feedback!! That was the entire point of the original system design! You put the card in correctly and it will have registered, one way or the other. End of. You don't need to look for the scroll bars if you've punched correctly (which only appear *after* you've removed the card from the unit anyway).
2) It's only "flakey" because you hardly ever use the system. You'd have no choice if you were in Norway or Finland. And if it were so flakey, would you trust the system with 13000+ runners at one event? - they do at Jukola each year and don't seem to have a problem. I know of Finns who dislike SI because they have to wait for the light/beep...
3) Brick - brikke - Norwegian for card
4) The system's core objective, as with any punching system, is NOT to give a time at each control. It is to provide a way of confirming that you have visited the control. Whether this be electronic or card/pin punch backup.

I can fully accept those who think EMIT is dodgy after technology failure, which seems to have been a bit too common over the past weekend. But I have no sympathy whatsoever (in fact, I get quite annoyed by their whinging) for people who moan about how rubbish the system is/how it doesn't work purely because they don't use it often enough.

In fact, I think this next statement sums it up quite nicely:

"The primary reason people dislike/hate EMIT is because they don't use it often enough, and hence don't fully know how to operate the card/how the system works"

[Homer]

Homer wrote:
I sent Marg to collect the EMIT cards and she was told by the official that they didn't have enough back-up cards to go round

Really? I went to get one for the final (seemed like a good idea after hearing about Angry Haggis' DSQ in the qualifiers) and they had a plenty big reel of them at enquiries - though I guess that might be because nobody else was bothering. It's fairly poor form if they really didn't have enough to go around.

Yes really. It was on Saturday not Sunday. I was surprised when I saw the large roll of back up cards on Sunday. Perhaps these were obtained after the problems on saturday?

[mikey]

"The primary reason people dislike/hate EMIT is because they don't use it often enough, and hence don't fully know how to operate the card/how the system works"

I prefer SI for one simple reason - longevity. My SI card is nine years old and is still going strong after 350+ events. My first EMIT card expired after 3 years and about 25 events, on the start line of a race.

[Scott]

1) How many times does it need to be said - You don't need the feedback!! That was the entire point of the original system design! You put the card in correctly and it will have registered, one way or the other.

Unless, of course, you're using contact-free EMIT, where if the card fails you're well and truly stuffed.