BOC 2008 maps - Stupid Decision

[awk]

We have of course been here and done this before - the problem isn't the inclusion of a middle for all on the JK, but that the long course at some events is far too short (the example given sounds about the right length for a middle!).

If the JK did go over to sprint-middle-long for all, it would be interesting to see what distance the long would actually be. Recommended WTs for WMOC are mostly 45mins for Women and 50 mins for Men, which I suspect would be regarded as too short by most. On the other hand, the 70-80 min Women and 90-100 min Men times for WOC/World Cup might be regarded by many vets as perhaps too far(if the best are doing those times...). National Events/BOC don't have RWTs any more, as based more on distance ratios to elite, but maybe 55-65 or 60-70 mins?

The fact is that the non-elite world is still orienteering more in the days of the 'Classic' rather than the IOF's elite world of 'middle' and 'long', which includes planning style. That isn't a criticism - I actually prefer the old classic style of course to the newer long style, but before any serious discussion of what format the JK should be, we do need to decide what precisely the definitions are. (This has gone a long way from the original thread title now!).

[Brian Hughes]

Adventure Racer:
Agree, if we could have a proper Long Course, that tests stamina, route choice, as well as speed and accuracy on one day and a Medium on the next (equivalent to the current courses) I would be very happy, and the map scales problem would be simplified.

Gross:
Are you underestimating the ability of the top M60s? We ran at 8 min/km both on the complex technicality of Leith Hill (11 controls in the quarries) and in the reasonably physical terrain at Ashdown with 290m climb.

Your comments were ironic, I ran 13 marathons, including a fast one of 2:33:23 at age 48, and managed 6 minute mileing over paths in a 7 mile race last year, age 60. I just prefer Orienteering. There is space in this super sport for both elites and 'oldies'.

Unfortunately, the Malvern Long O has been cancelled.

Brian Hughes (M60, HOC)

[seabird]

Two parallel formlines dont usually show a steep slope.

You shouldn't have two parallel formlines, unless they're the same height around a ridge or valley. One example of this is in the map extract upthread, just SSW of the number 6.

The very point I was alluding to Graeme. It seems that in the attempt to "overmap" some confusion has descended and at least one breach of basic mapping guidelines has crept in as a result.

[roadrunner]

Adventure Racer:
Gross:
Are you underestimating the ability of the top M60s? We ran at 8 min/km both on the complex technicality of Leith Hill (11 controls in the quarries) and in the reasonably physical terrain at Ashdown with 290m climb.

Your comments were ironic, I ran 13 marathons, including a fast one of 2:33:23 at age 48, and managed 6 minute mileing over paths in a 7 mile race last year, age 60. I just prefer Orienteering. There is space in this super sport for both elites and 'oldies'.
Brian Hughes (M60, HOC)

Brian, from that, you are obviously very fit and a very good orienteer. But I think, in discussing course lengths (especially at a "festival" such as the JK), we must also consider those who are much slower. I know of M21s - by no means novices - who used to find M21L courses far too long, in that while the winner might take 90 minutes or so, which is fine, they would be out for over two hours. Personally, I'm reasonably happy with M55L course lengths (though I haven't run many lately), but I'd certainly lose interest if they were made significantly longer.

[Adrian]

At the JK I had a 1:10k map at Leith Hill and 1:15k at Ashdown Forest, and then 1:10k again at Eridge. From the point of view of consistency, and because at age 42 I have difficulty focussing on the map with my contacts in, it would've been much better to have 1:10k every day. Course 10 would've fit on the 1:10k map at Ashdown, so I guess we had the 1:15k map just to conform to certain norms.

[Brian Hughes]

RoadRunner:
On a Discussion Forum I was very much expressing a personal, even selfish view. Obviously in a sport that is not growing, everyone must be kept as happy as possible, and I think it highly probable that you may be expressing the majority view.

Unfortunately I am a very inconsistent navigator in complex terrain. Only when i have pulled off a good sequence of runs at the 6 Day will I deserve your label as a 'Good Orienteer'. I was much better on the roads, but not a fraction as enjoyable!

Brian Hughes (M60L HOC)

[Gnitworp]

Only when i have pulled off a good sequence of runs at the 6 Day will I deserve your label as a 'Good Orienteer'.
Brian Hughes (M60L HOC)

Unfortunately, Brian, you're good enough to have pipped me by less than a minute overall in the last 2 JKs (including technical Leith Hill) , but your comment reinforces an earlier contention of mine, on another thread, that a real test of orienteering competence (or superiority) can only be had if the test is sufficiently prolonged, ideally over several events.

PS If you extrapolate the graph I'll beat you by 8 sec next time

[Brian Hughes]

Yes, but I have never got close to you where it counts in Scotland. Kyloe is too physical and slow for me, so perhaps your turn next year? You are running fast at the moment, I was surprised how close you got to JL at Big Wood which was very much a runner's course.

I seem to have lead the thread a long way off Map scales. Did you think Leith Hill map was readable by we super veterans?

Look at latest Events Group Minutes. Control Visibility. "The control (feature presumably) should normally be visible from 10% of the distance from the nearest visible attack point". If enforced this should rule out kites at the bottom of small pits in featureless grot that we have both complained about for some time.

Brian Hughes (M60 HOC)

[Barny of Blandford]

I didn't run in the previous event in 2005 at Leith Hill because I was back at school. However both Lynn and Simon did and had 1:7500 maps on that day. Looking at them now and comparing - this year on course 16 - M60 - I had problems with control 4 - knoll - could not work out what the map did at all or what I was trying to find even though I was within 20 metres and control 5 where I found 6 first (and had the fastest time of the day running back to it - results and splits never tell the full story!!) because I had problems working out where the faint yellow patch was on the map and ground. Looking at the two maps I actually think that the resolution on the 1:10,000 is better and easier to read. On controls 7/8/9 I did not have any problems about the contours because each time there was a green blob(s) to confirm which contour I was on.
I find that often what scale a map is or if it was printed laser or off-set is irrelevant - some maps because of the combination of colour depths are easier to read than others.
For example on this years map the line detail for brown is finer and lighter in colour and I find it easier to read. I didn't confuse course red lines with contour lines which often causes me problems. However small light yellow patches were and are a nightmare and I often miss them.
All of this convinces me that even more important than the map scale is the combination of colours that mappers and printers employ - you can often tell who the mapper or printer is by looking at the style and colours. Also some peoples maps are always clear and uncluttered - probably a knack that some have an intuitive feel for.
I am also convinced that within a year or two we will be having all maps laser printed as the quality and clarity of the technology continues to improve - also then no problems over map registers not lining up.

[Brian Hughes]

Barney of Blandford:
Excellent points about the importance of the printing process.
Course 16: control 4. I could see the small point knoll control feature on the map. but like you hesitated very close. I just could not see that there was a form line showing that the knoll is actually just down into the quarry. It is clear now under electric light.
Control 8. Agreed the thickets were extremely useful. Unlike you I still could not read the closely packed contours and form lines and just used the green to guide me in.
Control 14. I have never been too happy at the principle of using control sites in the midst of 'broken ground'.
All this must sound horribly critical. In fact the two days provided a good test between them of many O skills and both courses were highly enjoyable,
Brian Hughes (M60 HOC)

[Big Jon]

Just posting a reply to ensure this topic remains near the top of board - to remind people that BOC is going to be amazing this year!

Jon

[Mrs H]

Nice work Jon - and do you know if the organisers have made provision for the large number of people who will run to the map boxes, pick up their map and stand still for 10 minutes scrutinising the legibility - it could get quite crowded near the start kite

[greywolf]

Nice work Jon - and do you know if the organisers have made provision for the large number of people who will run to the map boxes, pick up their map and stand still for 10 minutes scrutinising the legibility - it could get quite crowded near the start kite

a bigger problem will be those who unfurl the map and just stand there gobsmacked...

[Big Jon]

I trust that all competitors will have the decency to move at least a few metres away from the map boxes into the forest before needing to lie down to recover from their first view of the map and course

[EddieH]

I can hardly wait