Should the sprint race be part of the overall JK?

[Gnitworp]

RJ - You can argue that an O race with a 12 - 15 minute winning time is not a long enough race to be an adequate test of orienteering skills. I've made this point in the past, but now, accepting the tidal wave of reality, do not see how, in practising Sprint O, the discipline suddenly becomes invalid at an abitrary level x of speed and ability.
Isn't it absolutely a matter of degree and not of kind?

[jondub]

There are some issues with setting sprint courses for older age groups, mainly that a 12 minute winning time may result in overly short course, but in my experience planners tend to allow for a longer winning time. The JK results seem to indicate that that happened there. Just because the race isn't as fast as the Elite, doesn't mean that it doesn't have the same challenges and rewards.

[RJ]

There may be a lot of people who think they can sprint.... but in reality.... it isn't anything of the sort! Moving as fast as you can might make you feel as if you are sprinting, but for most you will be travelling slower than your brain. So navigating is not difficult. Reading the map is a problem though, and when you slow down to decipher where the circle and feature is, you have lost the 'sprint'.

The recent article in CompassSport about 'ultra-sprint' is perhaps a better idea. There, controlled speed and map reading are combined to give a format where ALL can be competitive.

By all means let the sprint format be 'participation by all', but as an age class competition.... !!!!!! Yes it is good fun, and I enjoy it. Any talk of ranking points and championship standards is a laugh!

It is a wonderful spectator race when the elites are taking part, but watching a bearded, portly M45 in RonHill tracksters (or lycra clad W50) amble through the parkland is laughable!

[Barny of Blandford]

RJ - have you tried it??

Ps Some of us do wear running shorts - bit draughty at times - especially as we 'amble' round
Are you really that fast??

I wonder what an athlete would say if you told them that the 100m sprint was not a real race as only the 1500m mattered. Masters competitions in sports such as swimming, tennis and athletics is serious stuff these days.

[andy]

There may be a lot of people who think they can sprint.... but in reality.... it isn't anything of the sort! Moving as fast as you can might make you feel as if you are sprinting, but for most you will be travelling slower than your brain. So navigating is not difficult. Reading the map is a problem though, and when you slow down to decipher where the circle and feature is, you have lost the 'sprint'.

this is exactly the misconception many people have about the format 'sprint' orienteering.
It's got nothing to do with sprinting per se. In fact your sentence 'Reading the map is a problem though, and when you slow down to decipher where the circle and feature is, you have lost the 'sprint'.' is true, but that's what the format it about!! It's all reading the map and navigating while running as fast as you can. But wait a sec, that's what normal O is all about isn't it?

If you take a look at the mins per km the top men elite run at last weekend, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Just to give you a hint - the slowest they ran per km was in the sprint event. You could argue for hours about longer routes, quicker turns and things but it's the same for any discipline.

If you run 3km does anyone 'sprint'? No. Perhaps a re-branding?

[Gnitworp]

Short O?

[awk]

RJ, I go back to my original question: what on earth are you on about? Have you actually done any competitions beyond your local series? If so, when? Were you there on Friday? Have you actually looked at the speeds? Have you taken into account that actual distances are proportionally further in sprint, and with a higher density of controls, times if anything should be slower per km, not faster? I ask all these, because your assertions seem to bear no relationship to the sprint races I've done in recent years. Even if I am an overweight (but beardless) ex-M45 now M50, I'm still travelling faster in relation to the top elite than in the forest, am counting errors in terms of individual seconds, am travelling right on the limit of brain keeping up with legs*, and have just taken part in the tightest competition I've ever been in, where a single 10 second hesitation costs 3-4 places. That was certainly no amble in the park, and I'm sure Warwick in a couple of weeks time won't be either. Your experience of sprint orienteering seems vastly different to mine, and I would love to know what experience your assertions are based on. Incidentally, if you find the navigation in sprint racing easy, then you are almost certainly not running hard enough.

Gnitworp/andy: personally I think sprint is a great name: much more evocative than the bland 'short-O'. OK it's not sprinting as in 100m, but it perfectly reflects the nature of the orienteering compared to the other disciplines.

*If you are moving flat out, you are almost certainly moving faster than brain can work, as there is a significant shortage of oxygen. It doesn't matter how slow/unfit you are, it is relatively straightforward for a person to outrun their brain.

[Roger]

RJ:

Before the JK Sprint, I thought that I was good at this format. So vest and shorts for me on Friday (no lycra in sight, despite my advanced years), and fast running... and lots of mistakes. I lost maybe 4½ minutes during my 20½ minutes of effort at the Sprint -- more than in the subsequent 2½ hours of competition over the following three days.

It's a real challenge and an intense orienteering experience, all the way up the age spectrum. I look forward to putting into practice all those lessons learned when I come to the streets of Warwick, York, Portugal, Lincoln, London, Sheffield, ...

[SJC]

JK sprint is a great race - especially when only a couple of hours from home.

But please don't make it count as part of the weekend's results.
The thought of being forced to run a sprint race after a six hour drive to Newcastle just doesn't fill me with any enthusiasm.

[DJM]

jondub wrote:
There are some issues with setting sprint courses for older age groups, mainly that a 12 minute winning time may result in overly short course, but in my experience planners tend to allow for a longer winning time. The JK results seem to indicate that that happened there.

I planned the Sprint courses to have a winning time towards the top end of the 12-15 minute recommendation, adjusting each age class course length to try to meet this target. One problem was the lack of enough previous data on which to base course lengths for the older (and younger) classes, so we had to guesstimate quite a lot beforehand.

Looking at actual winning times, and then making adjustments for time lost through mistakes (Splitsbrowser is good for this!), some 10 of the 15 men's courses and 5 of the 15 women's courses had (ideal) winning times in the 12 - 15 minute range (I'm not counting M/W10 here as their course was deliberately planned to be shorter). There is no connection between older classes and longer winning times after errors have been taken into account.

[greywolf]

my answer to the original question is "no" - keep it separate (and special!) - but mostly because there would be too much rebellion from those who felt forced to take an extra day off work

I thought it was a great race, in a great area - i finished feeling very frustrated at 2:30 - 3 mins of mistakes and only cheered up slightly when i realised that was less then most

And keep it a "sprint" - there really is a significant difference between 2.5km races and a 6 km long urban like Edinburgh and it relates as much to leg length (m & s) as overall course length

[seabird]

Another reason to add to the arguments that the Sprint should be kept separate from the overall event. It has nothing to do with the merits or otherwise of Sprint O.

Some families, like mine, are split between orienteers and non-orienteers. I find it hard (but achievable) to persuade my non-orienteering partner to regularly sacrifice 3 days of the Easter break to O. To ask for the only day remaining to also be sacrificed would be an ask too far.

Sprint at Easter will remain permanently off limits for me and possibly others in similar situations.

[alcumbria]

I really enjoy the sprint races the maps for Scarborough and Guildford are fantastic but I don't think its a good idea to be added onto the JK overall. I set off immediately after my daughter finished school and we spent the night in a Layby near Banbury to allow me to get to the event on time.
Friday should be left as optional to allow people to travel. Judging by the the numbers at Guildford it is going to get more popular but will venues as good be found in the lakes or other remote areas

[Mrs H]

but will venues as good be found in the lakes or other remote areas

Center Parc? Ha ha ha (it'd be good tho' )

[graeme]

I did try to get into Center Parcs for the Chasing Sprint on Sherwood Pines - it would have given so many more options as a planner, but without a map or time to make one it was a bit of a non-starter.

They were a bit sniffy about letting outsiders in ("You'll have to pay our day rate of £££"). But its probably just a question of finding the right person. Possibly with a deal that CP could use the map free (or even get RDO time coaching ).

I have run/navigated around in the Lake district one too (using the site plan, not their "orienteering map"). It demands continuous concentration and has a lot of potential.