Control Description Reading Contests

[Arnold]

As Leith Hill planner I can't resist commenting on a couple of the points made
(incidentally, I'm surprised at how long these discussions have taken to get going - I was looking forward to some good old fashioned arguing!)

1. Using the "inside corner" symbol, e.g. for thickets
I do believe this is the right way to do it, when it's not an outside corner but an inside corner - the only other way to do it would be "side" but that's not very precise when there is indeed a corner.
It may be new for many of us but the way to read it is to mentally view the feature (building, thicket etc) as being on the other side of the line from where the dot is (on the control descriptions). And then the control is the dot. This is really exactly the same as the outside corner, except perhaps less intuitive

2. Having a radio control symbol
We did discuss that for a bit and decided to add it, probably because we could (rather than because it materially added much). Does the competitor need to know? Probably not - but then why does the symbol exist in the first place?

[Snail]

If the separation wasn't measured around impassable features it would have prevented two controls on opposite sides of a 29m wide buiilding, even if it was 200m long - so it might have been for this sort of issue that the rule amendment was requested.

In standard competition I think it depends on the features. I would probably not object to a pair of controls (on similar features) on opposite banks of an uncrossable river, thus implicitly applying the "around impassable features" interpretation, but would be a lot less happy about two similarly aligned impassable crags.

...

I initially thought this thread title related to the loose control descriptions at Leith Hill - the area I had most difficulty with over the weekend was trying to find the correct descriptions for my course - the print for both course number and classes was tiny, the start team didn't appear to know how they were laid out, and I had to use a magnifier on about 6 different bags - taking over the minute allowed - before finding the correct one

[NeilC]

So now my follow up question - why does the competitor have to know this?!?!

So as well as looking for the feature, tag or kite you can also keep a look out for a plastic bag gaffer taped to a tree.

[awk]

Sorry Patrick, but I have to disagree, the control description looks fine. We had one similar (course 18, control 2), and it's simply where the thicket edge bends inwards rather than outwards. It's a standard description, not a special one for sprint/urban formats, and I've come across it both here and abroad before, admittedly not often.

[Neil M40]

1. Using the "inside corner" symbol, e.g. for thickets
I do believe this is the right way to do it, when it's not an outside corner but an inside corner - the only other way to do it would be "side" but that's not very precise when there is indeed a corner.
It may be new for many of us but the way to read it is to mentally view the feature (building, thicket etc) as being on the other side of the line from where the dot is (on the control descriptions). And then the control is the dot. This is really exactly the same as the outside corner, except perhaps less intuitive

But it's not an inside corner, it's a reflex outside corner. It's only the inside corner of the forest surrounding the thicket. There is no way that the control site could be interpreted as "Thicket, north west corner (inside)", but that is what your description translates to. There isn't a symbol for reflex outside corner, so you should have used south-east side. And then I would have gone straight to the control. That seems to be precise enough to me. Or better still, move the control to somewhere that you could have described unambiguously.

Inside used to mean inside - inside a clearing, inside a ruin, whatever. If you have changed the meaning of a description to suit yourselves then we should have been told.

[roadrunner]

But it's not an inside corner, it's a reflex outside corner. It's only the inside corner of the forest surrounding the thicket

So how about "wall, inside corner"? You wouldn't expect that to mean that the control was inside the wall, would you?

[graeme]

Patrick is certainly right.

There's a thicket in the circle, it has a southern corner and it has an inside. That's where the description tells you to go. And from Hubmann's route, that's not where the control was.

If you have a problem with this, try imagining the thicket as a clearing, is the control inside the south end or beyond the north end?


...and walls don't enter into it - the definition for linear features is different, look it up!

[T5]

Talking specifically about the 3rd last control on the Open sprint course, I think the control and its description were spot on and very deliberately planned to catch people out - and what's the problem with that? Planners are always setting us challenges and are encouraged to include challenges all the way to the end when your brain may be running low on oxygen.

I am not geeky enough to know the exact wording of pictorial descriptions but I thought it looked like a blown up version of the map. It was showing a south corner, but it was on the north side of it. It's all about terrain visualisation.

Those who were lazy (hoping not to offend by my choice of words) ran into the circle from the direction of approach from the previous control and hoped to see the kite. Those who used sound orienteering techniques (ie: used ALL the information available to them) would approach the control correctly. Therefore the planner rewarded the better orienteers.

Having said that, the example of the thicket at Leith Hill does look a little dubious. I commend the mapper for being able to (caring to) map such a small indent in a thicket so accurately, but my own ability to read the fine detail of the map whilst running with snow in my face this weekend would have negated his efforts!

[andy]

The first 3 paragraphs of 'T5' I 100% agree with, it's basically the point I was trying to make earlier with the specific example I had in mind (as that's the course I ran)!

[awk]

Patrick is certainly right. There's a thicket in the circle, it has a southern corner and it has an inside. That's where the description tells you to go. And from Hubmann's route, that's not where the control was. If you have a problem with this, try imagining the thicket as a clearing, is the control inside the south end or beyond the north end?

But the thicket is a 'positive' feature, closer to a building or copse, not a 'negative' feature, a space carved out of a forest. Use that analogy, and the description is IMO very clear.

The description tells you to go to the 'inside' of an angle, not the inside of a feature. The only angle it could realistically be on (unless you think the planner is hiding the feature inside the thicket) is the spot where Hubman's route goes.

As I said, we had a similar description, and I have to say it was clear to me: the angle where the control could be placed on the inside of the angle not the outside.

[Neil M40]

But the thicket is a 'positive' feature, closer to a building or copse, not a 'negative' feature, a space carved out of a forest. Use that analogy, and the description is IMO very clear.

The description tells you to go to the 'inside' of an angle, not the inside of a feature.

Where in the IOF descriptions specifications does it say controls on 'positive' features are described differently to those on 'negative' features? The specification states quite clearly that column G specifies the position of the flag with respect to the feature. The description says north-west corner (inside) with respect to the feature.

I could carry on like this forever. I knew in the pub on Saturday night that I was never going to win the argument. I was just frustrated that I lost time and it wasn't my navigation that was at fault - I went to exactly to where I thought the description said the control was. If the planner had just said south-east side I wouldn't have had any trouble.

Thanks Arnold for a very enjoyable race - I am even enjoying grumbling about it. You wouldn't guess that I did much better than I expected.

[david_rosen]

Re: Leith Hill

My opinion is that the control description for the inside corner of the thicket is technically correct (which is why I allowed it). However, I do strongly agree with Graeme that control descriptions should be as simple as possible and not repeat information that is on the map. In retrospect, I should probably have asked for the control to be moved a few metres in order to use a less 'geeky' description.

As for the radio symbol, I did argue (at the time that we wrote the latest version of the IOF control descriptions) that we should eliminate that symbol, but I was outvoted.

David (Controller Day 2)

[Patrick]

The description tells you to go to the 'inside' of an angle, not the inside of a feature. The only angle it could realistically be on (unless you think the planner is hiding the feature inside the thicket)...

That is exactly what I did think. I even commented on this to someone next to me in the start box (who looked suitably confused), as I wondered aloud why the planner needed to hide the controls in thickets. As Neil and I have pointed out, that is the most logical interpretation of 'thicket, inside corner'. The comparison with a building is a false one when buildings are, by definition, out of bounds.

The description used may or may not be technically correct when you sit looking at a blown up map on a screen. The fact is it can clearly be misinterpreted by experienced orienteers - neither NeilM40 nor myself are exactly beginners! Using 'N side', for our control at least, would have been wholly unambiguous to the runner in the forest. I defy anyone to read accurately the shapes of each individual thicket on the Leith Hill map while running at speed in the terrain.

Arnold - thank you for the reply. You do seem to admit that the 'inside corner' formulation is "less intuitive" than the alternative. I would suggest that this should make it a less useful choice, and should only be used if it resolves an otherwise ambiguous description.

Cheers,

Patrick

[awk]

Where in the IOF descriptions specifications does it say controls on 'positive' features are described differently to those on 'negative' features? The specification states quite clearly that column G specifies the position of the flag with respect to the feature. The description says north-west corner (inside) with respect to the feature.

You're right it doesn't. Whilst perhaps badly expressed, my point was that a feature can create a corner where the corner goes into the feature, not outwards. In this case, the 'inside' corner symbol is showing the position of the control correctly in relation to the feature. This is more likely where the feature is 'positive' rather than 'negative', although I have seen it done with negative features (a clearing) before too.

Given that it was a thicket, I have to say that it immediately struck me that the control was positioned on one of these inward corners, rather than being hung inside the thicket. But then, I have to say that it's not the first time that I've come across this both here and abroad.

I can understand why the description was misunderstood, and sympathise with the time loss (intensely frustrating!) but in Arnold's defence, every time I've seen it used in relation to these 'positive' features, it's been used the way Arnold used it.

[Knee Deep Mud!]

In a sprint type event I personally have no problem with 'advanced control descriptions'. I think part of what makes a sprint event such fun are the more unusual control locations, and the occasional ending up on the wrong side of an impassable wall. Pity I didn't read the control descriptions on Friday, even when I could see from the map that there might be an issue (brain slowing down due to oxygen debt from running faster than usual!). It is the combination of map and control descriptions that gives you the information you need to navigate to the control. Ignore one, and you have to accept that there is a risk that you might get caught out. I will certainly be taking more effort to read the descriptions in a couple of weeks time.

However, this does depend on accurate and unambiguuous control descriptions. At Leith Hill I largely just ran to the centre of the circle having just checked the control number. However (in my opinion, and from the comfort of my armchair at home), having looked at the control descriptions for my course, I would say that 9 out of 21 controls are abiguuously or incorrectly described, so the CDs wouldn't have been that helpful if I'd seriously needed to use them.