ROBIN HOOD TROPHY

[RS]

It was good to see NOC accepting very late entries and not imposing a surcharge. I am all in favour of this as I think it might encourage newcomers who may not want to enter in advance. My main concern is that people start to abuse such a system and enter at the very last minute, thus putting an unacceptable workload on the volunteers.
I know MDOC sometimes print maps (at colour-coded events?) on demand and have wondered why other clubs can't do the same. Any other thoughts on pros and cons?
BTW, well done, NOC.

[awk]

Nothing to add on the main topic, except that this has really got to be the prerogative of the organising club, but as you've started a thread on the Robin Hood Trophy, just to add what a great event this was. Thanks NOC!

[RJ]

Well done NOC. The main advantage to the competitor of a pre-entry is the choice of start time. Enter early enough and you should be able to ask for the time to suit you. Enter late and you get slotted in at the convenience of the club, very early, very late, whatever.

As awk says, it should be the prerogative of the organising club. Just state it clearly in the event details and competitors will vote with their feet. IMHO there is no justification for a surcharge, rather there are good reasons to allow entry as late as possible as it will reduce the burden on the day, especially with anxious competitors turning up early to grab the available maps.

Map unit costs are so low now that printing extra is a cost that can be easily recovered. And printing to demand at events will become the norm before too long.

[awk]

The main advantage to the competitor of a pre-entry is the choice of start time. Enter early enough and you should be able to ask for the time to suit you. Enter late and you get slotted in at the convenience of the club, very early, very late, whatever.

Agree entirely. I do therefore get a bit peeved when we ask for middle starts, get early ones, and are then told that spare middle slots are required for late starters, entries etc. My attitude has always been if that I'm entering on the day or late for my start, then I'm taking the risks. More and more we've had to ask for late starts in order to get middle ones, as prefer risking late to early starts. (We asked for and got middle ones at the Robin Hood, so flowers and no brickbats on this front as well!).

[NeilC]

The technology must exit for competitors to be able to choose their own start times when entering online - much like some airlines allow you (for a charge) to choose currently unallocated seats on a plane. No idea whether any of the current online entry providers are considering this - it would be popular with the clubs. The earlier you enter the more choice of start times you get.

This wouldn't work for events where seeding is required.

On demand printing has been predicted as the norm for several years now. I guess that too many of us are concerned about the implications of equipment failure. I reckon that I could recover an event through failure of any of the usual equipment, but if the event relies on a single laser printer then I'd be very nervous. Yes an inkjet could be on backup but is this suitable for a regional event?

[awk]

Given the costs of laser printers today, why bother with an inkjet backup?

[Adventure Racer]

Indeed - given the main cost is in consumables, and if you're not using it it's not costing you. Surely for most events there is also another nearby club who could loan a backup printer.

[Gonzo]

Scarey !!

Although I agree it is probably the future for certain events - there are a few further considerations.

Map quality - this varies hugely with clubs around the country using their own printers. This will be even worse with print on demand because of some of the following.

Environmental concerns - where the printer is makes a difference to the print quality. Changes in temperature cause condensation and fusing issues. Print quality will fluctuate.

Paper - I looked on a ream of paper just now and it says it should be in the same environment as the printer for 24 hours before use! I know that is probably taking things a bit far - but cold paper or damp paper will be a nightmare.

Speed of printer - at small events this is not likely to be an issue - but printing on demand at registration will just create an additional queue. Also - do you then give the map to the competitor i.e. before their run (no), or do you print maps for the start team as people register? Can you keep up with demand? Heaven help you if the start is at a remote location!

Planner / Controller - will one of them have to stand and check each map as it prints or designate the job to a quality controller?

I am in no way against print on demand as a principle - but unless the event is based at a village hall or a club caravan - adjacent to the start - then I can see a disaster waiting to happen.

[seabird]

Printing a whole C4 event on demand on the day is a tall order. It is reasonable to predict a minimum number of maps which need printing in advance, while printing the extra demand at the event.

Most C4 events nowadays seem to use waterproof paper. Recent experience has shown that putting waterproof paper (Xerox Nevertear) through a Konica Minolta produces paper feed problems, although when the paper feeds ok the output is good. Also there is a little cost advantage in laser printing your own maps on waterproof paper over having them commercially laser printed.

The obvious answer is if printing on the day to print on ordinary 120gms paper and provide map bags, but would that be unfair if most entrants had professionally laser printed maps on waterproof paper. In my experience I cannot replicate the same quality of line definition on the Konica Minolta as the professional laser printers (let alone offset litho). Using two different printers also produces the problem that the colours on the map will almost definitely not be entirely the same between the two.

The other problem we have encountered is what to do when there is no mains electricity supply. One of our major landownerrs insists that only diesel generators are used. We have yet to indentify one that is sufficiently powerful for a laser printer (and don't ask me the specifications- can't recall off hand)and sufficiently portable. Any ideas?

[RJ]

Printing at events.... you just need to do it.... get on with it.... its a doddle. Of course you could spend your time analysing things, and what could go wrong.... and then never do it!

Our recent District event had fantastic weather and an increase in numbers well over those expected. About 220 maps were pre-printed, and about 150 were printed on the day. You just never know what the split of numbers will be over the various courses as well, so you can't pre-print accurately. Of course you could print 500 and bin the excess. That might be more efficient. And the paper can be recycled.

Damp paper??? Where the hell do you store the stuff.... in the garage?

There are lots of quality control issues..... and these need to be addressed, but they can be put right by usage and gaining experience.

[Zokko!]

Picture the sceen: a couple of years ago at SROC's Blawith Regional Event, heavy rain all day, assembly on a windswept hill top, computing team in a van with club tent attached, mains power from a generator. The mono laser intended for printing results gave up by the time it was needed. Luckily I could produce reults on the thermal splits printer. Now if we had been relying on printing maps? BTW the laser worked as soon as it was back home in the warm and dry.

Have we not all been to events where maps run out and are collected from early finishers to be used by late starters? surely that is recycling!