Galoppen Scoring Systems

[runnerbean]

The scoring system for the SEOA Galoppen is out on a limb. Most, if not all, the other association-organised galoppens use a winner's time/competitors time approach to scoring whereas SEOA use a 100 for 1st, 99 for 2nd etc system. It's also an age class galoppen with a proportion (65-75%) of the year's SE regional events to count. Last year it was 6 out of 8. In 2007, there were only 13 classes (out of 52) where all the top 3 had 6 runs - and M21 wasn't one of them.
In my view, the current system rewards participation over ability. I emailed a couple of people involved to express my view and suggest that the number of counting events should be reduced and the scoring system changed. In reply, I received a counter-suggestion, which was that ALL events should count - to increase participation.
I told a orienteering friend about the two opposing views yesterday - his response was, who cares?!

Hence the poll, what are galoppens for?

[lakesorunner]

Go with what works....

Cumbria has a very successful Galoppen series (now in it's 13th or 14th year!). All District events in Cumbria are part of the series (normally 4 or 5 from WCOC, a similar number from LOC, 2 from BL, and then WAROC and SROC when in Cumbria), so we usually end up with about 10-13 races spread throughout the year, and from one end of the county to the other.
Scoring is like that described for SEOA (99 for 1st, 98 for second, 97 for third etc), and the best five results count. Yes, it does reward just turning up, but the winners will always be the best in class. If you happen to be at an event where no-one else turns up - so much the better - you get good points, but that won't happen at five events in the year so there will be little if any distortion in the overall results. During 2007 there were well over 100 runners competing in 5 or more events trhough the year, and lots of others running 4 races.
The big advantage of the Galoppen in Cumbria has been the ability to maintain and even increase participation at all District events, so more people get to enjoy orienteering, and so more money comes in to map and stage other events and areas (such as the three races Short Race series - http://www.cumbrian-short-race.org.uk)
It also gives the clubs a buzz towards the end of the galoppens, where we are trying to mazimise points by getting more club members out there running for us.
At the end of the day - why not reward participation at least to some extent. Orienteering is not just about winners - it needs ALL the also-rans to keep the sport going!

[Scott]

I'd suggest that the SEOA galloppen might be suffering from a surfeit of classes. Some of those regions that aren't blessed with the same abundance of regional events as the South East run their galloppens over a series of colour-coded events, which gives far more competition in each "class" and, as lakesorunner points out, boosts attendances at what might otherwise be relatively poorly attended C4s.

Surely finding the best orienteers in the regions by age class is what the regional champs are for?

[runnerbean]

It also gives the clubs a buzz towards the end of the galoppens, where we are trying to mazimise points by getting more club members out there running for us.

So is the NWOA galoppen both a club competition and an individual one?
If so, how does the club competition work (I couldn't see any details on the nwoa website)? Possibly worth another thread, but how do you organise a club competition that encourages participation, but doesn't result in one that's won by the largest club? - e.g. the SE League where SO have won 10 years in a row!

Surely finding the best orienteers in the regions by age class is what the regional champs are for?

They should find the best orienteers on the day, but galoppens could be a way to find the best over a season.

Maybe the question I should have asked is, does a galoppen that rewards participation over ability, actually increase participation? Are people going to be motivated to participate in a competition where you can win by simply turning up to more events than other people?

[NeilC]

but how do you organise a club competition that encourages participation, but doesn't result in one that's won by the largest club? - e.g. the SE League where SO have won 10 years in a row!

Yes I admit that SO win the SE league by taking large numbers to each event - however there are are a number of other SEOA inter-club competitions/leagues:

CSC preliminary round 25 scorers
SE score championships 12 scorers
SE night league 5 scorers
SE relay championships 3 scorers (ie one team)

It just so happens that SO currently hold all of these as well

Back to galoppens, much of SO's success (in participation terms) is the fortnightly Saturday morning galoppen. Averaging 140+ per event so far in 2008 and fierce competition - not just at the top but throughout. Read Chris Curtis's blog http://www.curtisfamily.org.uk/index.php/category/orienteering - it's all about turning up week after week to beat your closest rival.

[lakesorunner]

The Galoppen I alluded to is the Cumbrian Galoppen - and only competitors from the Cumbrian clubs are counted (the NWOA tried to start a 'Red Rose Galoppen', but with only limited success). As with all normal District events, they are open to anyone (the more the better), but points are only awarded to counting competitors (even though SROC have staged Cumbrian Galoppen events, they never actually appear in the scores!!)
The Team competition works on the top 5 runners from each club in each of the scoring classes (Yellow, Orange, Light Green, Green, Blue and Brown) - thereby giving each club a team score from 30 runners. You don't have to have competed in 5 or more events, but it obviously helps...
WCOC have won most (the overall prize is the Borrowdale Trophy - kindly made and given by the late Chris Bland), but LOC have 'borrowed' it on the odd occasion.
A typical District event in Cumbria will have 250ish runners, but we have gone over 400 with a particularly nice day and area. One area of huge growth over the last few years is in the Yellow/Orange groups. LOC originally held court over these classes, with the help of UVHS, but WCOC now have the initiative with an incredibley healthy schools program (they can get over 250 kids for an after schools event most Thursdays). A typical Galoppen event will get over 50 on the Yellow, and a similar number on the Orange.
It doesn't have to be a Galoppen - WCOC and BL have a 'fun!?' event every year (The Golden Gauntlet). All it needs is for two or more clubs to want to put an event or two on, someone to counts some scores, and for everyone to have a bit of fun!!!!!
The best thing for a Galoppen to work is that local clubs TALK to each other, and put together a program which suits all clubs. Spread the events throughout the year, spread the word, and get more people orienteering!!

[mike g]

I think leagues with scoring systems work much better at encouraging participation at club or local level than at regional level, as for example with SO's galoppen, SLOW's street-o league and Nick Barrable's Kent night cup. It's interesting that lakesorunner says the Cumbrian Galoppen is successful but an attempted NWOA-wide version wasn't.

I want to finish as high as possible in SLOW's street-o league because I know all my rivals, but couldn't care less about my position in a regional league where many of the other competitors of similar ability will just be names to me. Whatever scoring system it uses, I doubt whether more than a handful of people will base a decision to go to an event on whether it counts for the SEOA Galoppen.

[DM]

Lakesorunner;
If we joined a Lakes club as a second club would we appear in the scores? We try to get up for as many galoppens as we can because of the numbers and quality of the areas used.

The reason a NWOA wide series failed is probably the size of the area.

[Adventure Racer]

When you started talking about "Galoppen", I assumed you meant a club competition, since I wasn't even aware anybody paid any attention to such a thing on an individual basis! Having said that the orienteering competition I consider to be the most important to me is the Western Night League, which is effectively a regional night gallopen (though with far more complex scoring rules ), so a minor part of a minor sport in a minor area. I think number of counting competitions should be limited - with 6 to count from 9 events this year, one of which I organised and one I'll probably miss due to other commitments, that only leaves me one discard.

[Oldman]

Anyway, why use this mysterious Scandinavian term "ggaallooppeenn" [I doubled all the letters as I don't know which should be double ].

It's as stupid as having a a club spelled with a "k"

[andy]

Anyway, why use this mysterious Scandinavian term "ggaallooppeenn"

hence the reason 'Scotlandgallopen' became 'Scottish Orienteering League'

[Oldman]

Anyway, why use this mysterious Scandinavian term "ggaallooppeenn"

hence the reason 'Scotlandgallopen' became 'Scottish Orienteering League'

Well, all I can say is "Well done, Scotland!"

[IanD]

I voted "encouraging participation" but that doesn't mean that there isn't a real competition. Various forms of one-off championship can find the "best" orienteer (on a given day), but there is room too for a competition which finds the “best” regular participant over a season. OK, not everybody will take it seriously, but some will.

I would favour a proportion, rather than all, to count; it certainly won't encourage participation if missing one event early in the season means you can't do well in the series.

I would also opt for terms which are meaningful to newcomers and newspaper editors, e.g. “Kent Orienteering League” rather than “Saxons Galoppen”.

As for scoring systems, I prefer the simplicity of points for places; or the fairness of the standard deviation calculation used for the national ranking list and the Scottish 6-Days. Ratio of competitors time to winners time seems second-best in both aspects.

[SeanC]

Am I right in thinking that the SE Galoppen and league competitions are pretty much the same as back in the 80's? Maybe the answer is that the scoring systems of individual competitions need regular review and change (but not easy in the SE with so many different clubs).

A more productive discussion might be on one individual competition rather than generalising about all Galoppens. Can we have a South East only thread?

For what my opinion's worth, I think the SE might be better having (lets call them something else but) galoppens based on district events, as there is currently no competition for these events in the SE wheras the regionals are often ranking events and also SE league events. My own preference would be for two or three galoppens in different parts of the SE (eg Kent/Sussex, Surrey/Berks/Bucks, Herts/Essex) as many wont travel across London. As for the league, a change is needed to the scoring system to give clubs other than SO some chance. The CSC rules made the HH v SO competition at Shorne a lot more exciting than the SE league, Neil - you were actually behind for quite a while! However I could bet the value of my house on SO winning the SE league for the next 5 years using current rules. Also for small clubs there is nothing to be won - unlike the CSC.

I could go on but I fear the rest of the country has fallen asleep.

[NeilC]

Neil - you were actually behind for quite a while!

Non-final CSC scores are rarely that useful - so many clubs play the tactic of putting their strongest runners out last. I think that NOC were ahead for most of last year's final. And we were above SLOW until near the end

How many runners should score for a club in the SE league has cropped up on a regular basis, but as the poll suggests leagues should encourage participation. I can tell a novice runner that if they compete at Event X they will score points for the club even if they are the 75th best runner for the club on the day. Much less incentive if only 30/40/50 etc score. The league co-ordinator did play around with cutting down the number of scorers but it didn't make a lot of difference to the league positions unless it went down to only 20 or so scorers counting.

However I could bet the value of my house on SO winning the SE league for the next 5 years using current rules.

Is it worth much? I could be open to a bit of match fixing.