Routegadget - Lyme Park

[EddieH]

I don't think its that simple Epocian - after all its a bit late if you disqualify someone whose actions have causedm future loss of the area.

Can you not imagine arriving rather late and running ofto registration without reading - I certainly can - it's quite simple I enter the longest thing available and if its a score I go to them all anyway so why do I need to read the datails for that?

I am not making excuses for a theoretical problem but if standard map markings are always used a) people never have an excuse and b) people will understand what the markings mean through common usage.

[redpossum]

The only sure way to make people aware of such things as walls which must not be crossed is for one of the officials in the start lane to tell everyone who passes through and to stress why, i.e. loss of use of the area and to tell them they will be immediately disqualified if seen. The latter then HAS to be implemented otherwise it's all a waste of time.

[graeme]

How difficult is it to remember
Do NOT cross any walls or fences except at marked crossing points?

Here's another one... How difficult is it to remember...
Walls which may not be crossed are shown on the map with a purple line?

The answer, from years of observation, is the same - Difficult enough that competitors, organisers and controllers forget at a majority of events.
And the post-event response is always to blame the other guy rather than resolve to get it right yourself.

Meanwhile, an ISSOM question. If you have a wall beside an olive green area, should you map it...

1. Crossable or uncrossable, according to height
2. Uncrossible, because you're not allowed on the other side
3. Not at all, because the olive green tells you you cant cross
4. Whichever makes the map clearer, because the olive green tells you you cant cross

[redpossum]

It's certainly not difficult to remember - it's just whether everybody knows it in the first place.

In ISSOM height is not necessarily a factor whether a wall is crossable or not.
To quote " An impassable or retaining wall, which fulfill the function of an enclosure or solid barrier. It shall not be crossed, due to forbidden access or because it may constitute a danger to the competitor due to its height. It is forbidden to cross an impassable wall! Competitors violating this rule will be disqualified".

I'm busy mapping an urban sprint area and am showing walls like this around people's properties as well as the olive green (belt and braces so that runners don't go through people's gardens or through cemeteries, etc. unwittingly). So in answer to the question - a combination of 1 & 2.

[chris]

How difficult is it to remember
Do NOT cross any walls or fences except at marked crossing points?

it might be easy to miss something in the final details as someone is rushing to enter.

so it might be quite hard depending on the circumstances

but it should just be common sense not to hurdle walls

[Mrs H]

I think that is a very depressing response for all the organisers out there who have delicately negotiated access arrangements and painstakingly drafted final details - it was all a waste of time folks - people don't care or can't be bothered
This does not just impact on wall crossings etc - which can be over come by marking retrictions on the map. but everything else.
a while back i suggested the use of the

If you read nopthing else in these details then you must read this

box at the top of final details and I have seen the device used - does anyone think its worth trying.

Obviously a few high profile disqualifications would do a lot to concentrate the minds of the lazy/careless prior to competition

[Oldman]

I agree with MrsH. How selfish can people be to claim to forget a key aspect that affects land access? And overprinting walls is not always feasible when there are many.

Would the same competitors ignore requests to be courteous to other users such as horseriders or walkers. "Oh, I don't need to do that, I'm engrossed in my [selfish] competition!"

[Gnitworp]

Avoiding 'inviting' competitors to go where they shouldn't by appropriate course planning measures of the type I have previously mentioned in this thread can sometimes mitigate the fraught situation. Needs a change of mindset with many though.

[Mrs H]

Chris - editing your post to change what you said in the face of criticism is childish and cowardly!

[Lizi Beee]

Right, I have not been on Nope for absolutely ages to avoid this. All of this. Utter stupidity and lack of helpful comments by some, which really began to ruin the sport for me.
However this event is very dear to my heart and it is really upsetting to me that there has been all this faff.

1. This is LYME PARK. It has been used for decades. NEVER (in my memory certainly) has it been permissable to cross the walls. Those regulars to the event really should know this by now as this is ALWAYS a note in the final details about it. Coincidently, the note is usually in large bold CAPS as to make it noticable, as it was this year.
Also, it's a NT area, I can't think of many NT areas I've been to recently where they have allowed events to climb the walls. Especially areas with wildlife, like Lyme's famous dears. A smidgeon of common sense in this case would have done the trick.

2. For those non-regulars, (this year certainly) final details were given to every o-car that came in the gates, giving you the ridiculously long 20mph drive for at least one person in the car to read them and inform the others (fair does to single drivers).

3. This event is probably the only one of it's format in the UK, this means that final detail reading is pretty much essential - the exact specifics of the event change year to year (as someone touched on, this year control 1 was not compulsory) again making final detail reading necessary. There were several copies of the final details floating around the registration tables for this point and there smack in the middle in big bold print was the note.

4. If you arrive late and in a rush then 1, you may have time management issues that you are aware of and check out the event details BEFOREHAND. Which you were very welcome to do from our website.

5. Yes the purple overprinting makes it extra clear, but the fact is, on Lyme Park that is just plain unreasonable. The map would barely be readable and it would cause a lot more complaints - I would guess mostly by regulars who would have none not to do such silly things anyway.

6. This was a charity event, an event for FUN. Two points come from this - one the stupid voiding comments by those who belong in the banter section - and the other, WHY? Why did the extra 8 seconds needed to win, (or the 10 gained from the long) why did they have to come from something which must have vaguely flickered across the brain "ooh everyone else is using the crossing points? Hmm, these walls are high and in pretty good nick..."
I wonder if the people climbing these walls would go back and put any stones they knocked out of them back having wanted so bad to get that lead?

7. No one was suggesting people were purposely climbing walls to make damage - but the fact remains that if people keep doing it, we, MDOC, as a club risk the loss of one of our most valued areas. I think people should have that in mind for future. Also, Fratello de Pingu - Dobs are also on the not allowed list I thought for Lyme Park. I remember joking around about with Dave a few years ago, when I noticed it in the final details - I will admit I do not read them in full for Lyme Park, then again I know about the walls and dobs. I believe the dobs are unfriendly for churning up the fells and leaving marks on the walls (be it crossing point or not ).

Things I think need to come from this are:
Symbols - I wish they'd make the symbols crystal clear, lots of orienteers when asked would think high = uncrossable = not meant to. I used to be one of them before I read the focus, but in general I didn't like climbing walls anyway, as it would usually cost me more time faffing trying to get over them than to just go to the Xpoint.
Planning - Yes planning should take this into consideration, but at times that is not always possible. I thought that Eddie did a great job with the planning. Unfortunately this event format would make it very difficult to force people over walls at specific crossing points, as IanW said, complicated software would be needed for wall crossing controls. A little bit too much effort for the new years charity event me thinks.
Final Details - I think it is the competitors responsibility to make sure that they read them. Whether beforehand or the ones that are usually dished out on arrival. It's not like there is only one option these days.
Common Sense - It would be great if a few more people could apply this - as it seems Chris has also said.

Apologies for that rant but hearing this develop week has left me really downhearted about what was a fantastically successful event, with highest participation ever and highest total raised for charity ever - a nice ~£2,200 will be on it's way to UNICEF so THANK YOU everyone that came and donated!
I have tried my hardest to stay reasonable and just in what I say but everyone has their own opinion so feel free to take it up with me if you have a problem with any of it. I will not claim to be an expert on the exact meanings of the symbols, nor the computing side of things.

p.s. I agree Mrs H.

[Scott]

This seems to have wandered off-topic a bit, but nevermind.

Meanwhile, an ISSOM question. If you have a wall beside an olive green area, should you map it...

1. Crossable or uncrossable, according to height
2. Uncrossible, because you're not allowed on the other side
3. Not at all, because the olive green tells you you cant cross
4. Whichever makes the map clearer, because the olive green tells you you cant cross

Technically, it should probably be 2: the spec for 521.1 impassable wall says, "It shall not be crossed, due to forbidden access or because it may constitute a danger to the competitor due to its height." Though I must confess a general dislike for 519.9 passable wall - I may not have the best eyesight in the world, but I do find a .35mm grey line quite hard to spot when running at speed . I do think that option 3 could be a bit too unclear, particularly for those of us whose navigation is so bad that we like to keep tabs on where we are by counting driveways and suchlike...

This was a charity event, an event for FUN.

I should hope so too. Who would want to go to a non-fun event?
(I agree with the rest of what Lizi said, though.)

[EddieH]

One final comment from me. It is unfortunate that this discussion has come under the heading "Lyme Park" as most comments, mine certainly don not refer in any way to this event in particular. I am sure that it was a great event - I would have done it and loved it had I been nearby, and its great that all that money was raised.
Three cheers for all the officials that produced and managed the event.
As with many many discussion threads the majority of entries had digressed from Lyme Park long ago.

[RS]

Why can't the person who crossed the wall own up to it? I'm sure many know who the person is.

[chris]

mrs h i did not change my comment in the face of critism but as i knew that it was incoreect and I appologise for posting it

[Gnitworp]

One final comment from me. It is unfortunate that this discussion has come under the heading "Lyme Park" as most comments, mine certainly don not refer in any way to this event in particular.

More or less what I was about to say, but Eddie beat me to it.

Apologies to the Lyme Park Event.