Eyesight and Map Scales

[richardm]

really, how much benefit are they going to get from having a larger scale map. if the competitor is winning world championships be seconds then its probably something worth looking into, but it seems a bit harsh to say that someone with sight problems has to be nc for the sake of being able to see the map.

The issue is that the conditions must be the same for everyone for a competition to be fair. If I am less flexible and can't get down a steep slope as fast as someone else, have I the right to demand that such slopes be eliminated? Of course not!

but in the same way you could say that someone with better o-shoes has an unfair advantage over someone running in a pair of trainers for getting downa steep slope, because they have chosen to use equipment that makes it easier for themselves, very much like a visually impaired orienteer using a larger scale map.

i would expect that anyone could get a larger printed map for a race if you ask in advance (as mentioned above), so really i dont see what the problem is.

[Oldman]

... you could say that someone with better o-shoes has an unfair advantage over someone running in a pair of trainers for getting downa steep slope, because they have chosen to use equipment that makes it easier for themselves, very much like a visually impaired orienteer using a larger scale map.

But the key issue is that it is open to anyone to equip their feet with whichever shoes they wish. It can only be fair if everyone has the same map to the same scale or has the right to request it, even if not absolutely necessary for that person.

I suspect we're not going to agree on this, but the important point is that everyone must be treated the same or it is not a fair competition.

[runnerbean]

Why is it unfair for everyone to have a map that they can read? It seems that most people (at least most of those who've posted) think the decision was unfair. I'll email the Rules Group and ask for an explanation. I'll post any replies on this thread.

[graeme]

I suspect the issue is more whether is it reasonable to require event organisers to print maps at all manner of scales and have them available at the start line. As a competitor, I'd generally like to have a larger scale map - especially now long route choice legs have gone out of fashion. But as an organiser or start official the idea of producing and handing out everyone's personalised map sounds like a nightmare.

Graeme

[AndyO]

Oldman wrote: The same is true of eyes

Yes, but we can't give out new ankles, but we can give a larger scale map to the (very) few in this category with eye defects. As I have said earlier, I am not advocating this as a widespread practice, or for those (like myself) who would actually like a larger scale map to help see detail more clearly. That is a separate discussion, to be balanced with the detail of the area and the length of the course. I can't read the dunes at Balmedie at all at 1:10000, but I don't like having a huge map to fold either.

I'm just a grumpy old man, really

[EddieH]

I absolutely agree Graeme - as someone who was losing love of the sport through inability to read many maps I would never expect that sort of orgnisational requirement to be put on volunteers, and it would make me far less likely to get involved in planning/ controlling.

I had a problem and I have found what for the moment is an acceptable solution. As magnification required increases this may become less acceptable at which point I will either have to turn to frankly less enjoymnent , leaving the sport or laser surgery

What has been alluded to here and by me before, is that maps should be mapped at their basic scale for young adults, and enlarged from that scale for older competitors - never survaeyed and drawn at 1:10000 for veteran competitions.

[Peter B]

Is it fair for organisers or other volunteers to not go that extra mile at the expense of people with visual disabilities?

[runnerbean]

I suspect the issue is more whether is it reasonable to require event organisers to print maps at all manner of scales and have them available at the start line.

Given that no-one is suggesting (yet) that we should all be able to choose our preferred map scale and that it was stated in the minutes that the organisers were prepared to supply the map at the enlarged scale, I don't see that this is likely to have been behind the decision to declare the person non-competitive.
If the request comes too late, or the infrastructure isn't there to handle the request then that's fair enough.
Fairness in our sport should be rigorously enforced in those aspects that are intrinsic to orienteering: navigating/interpreting the map and traversing the terrain as quickly as possible (except in Trail-O). To me, and most other people, being able to physically see the detail of the map isn't a skill that we're trying to test. People who struggle to see the detail should be given all reasonable help to enable them to participate competitively and enjoy orienteering.

[SYO Member]

Peter B, yes it is fair for organisers to not go that extra mile and the Rules group were right in their decision.

How many times must it be pointed out that orienteering is a unique highly organised sport which has always been inclusive, based on its current politically correct definition, and because as we all know it's not about rucksacks and woolly hats but is by its nature one of the toughest sports around for those who want it to be, there are always going to be people who for some reason aren't able to compete in the same way as the majority.

And yet we do our best to accommodate many of these by, for example, putting on Trail-O events as well as providing permanent courses and even string courses. I'm sure sports of a similar nature to orienteering, e.g fell running or mountain biking, don't do similar so is it just related to whether the sport receives funding?

The only 2 concessions in normal competition that we make are that certain age groups can use a larger scale map, and we provide shorter courses for those who are able bodied but for whatever reason prefer them.

Of the first, although I have always preferred 10,000 if only for the psychological reason that you cover distance on the map quicker, the cut off point (as defined by IOF or BOF?) happens to be M40L and there will always be some under-40 orienteers who have trouble. Sadly it's just one of those things although ironically, elites with whom I have discussed this matter, have no problem with 10,000 anyway at Regional events or above. If you allowed anybody on any course to choose their scale whether 10,000, 7,500 or anything else, not only would it be another burden for organisers in the physical sizing and printing of the map but in the control descriptions as well. For example "East most Pit" at 15,000 might be "Middle Pit" at 10,000 and this could apply to any control on any course at any scale.

Of the second, if we didn't allow short courses, then the third of orienteers who run them, many if not most of whom are also experienced event officials, would probably be lost to the sport.

Regarding the issue of colour blind orienteers, if Legolost reckons its bad in the current digital printing age, it was even worse in the days of spot printing where commercial printing companies effectively made up their own Pantone colours. Although you say you're new to orienteering, you'll actually find as you get more experienced that if there is doubt
between a green or brown feature or colour screen, you can often deduce it, and for those that are controls, you should obviously utilise the descriptions. Fortunately for the most common confusing features, brown dot knolls or green dot thickets, an area will generally either have a load of knolls or a load of thickets and not very often a mixture of both in
the same part of the area.

Although red/green colour blind myself, but a mapper for over 25 years and currently SYO's mapping officer, it has never been a real problem although the proportion of men who are colour blind, which I believe is 1 in 12, is probably greater amongst current orienteers as those who decided it was a problem will have left the sport.

[Oldman]

I'm just a grumpy old man, really

Oi! That's my role in this forum!

[RJ]

I'm fairly certain I know where this original ruling request came from. A good orienteer who is currently suffering sight impairment just wants to be able to continue. Printing a special map at the best scale to show the course in greater detail has not posed a significant problem for the club. So, catering for the orienteer, so that they can continue to compete (and be competitive!) is not a problem.

Where we seem to be getting stuck is on the interpretation and 'personal opinions' on the person's competitiveness. Rules are rules eh!! Apologies for the pun.... but we seem unable to be able to see the bigger picture. In the grand scheme it really doesn't make any difference.

To go back a couple of decades.... there used to be a rule that you couldn't wear red clothing while orienteering because you might be interpreted as a moving control. I think we have got over that one!! Likewise, if we take the time to reflect and look at the bigger picture it doesn't matter what size of piece of paper someone chooses to run with.

Probably the question was posed in the first place because, although there is no problem supplying a map at our local colour coded events, trying to obtain a similar concession at a major national event may be a different matter. One event may be helpful, another may say no. I think some consistency was being looked for. It is only going to affect a few people.... are we so unhelpful that we can't find a way forward. Is it really as simple as you have the choice of carrying a magnifier or not.... your choice! It would be unfair for that orienteer to be able to compete at anything local, but then wishing to travel further afield has to put up with the vagaries of individual organisers. Some events can be entered, others not.

[Legolost]

Peter B, yes it is fair for organisers to not go that extra mile and the Rules group were right in their decision.

Regarding the issue of colour blind orienteers, if Legolost reckons its bad in the current digital printing age, it was even worse in the days of spot printing where commercial printing companies effectively made up their own Pantone colours. Although you say you're new to orienteering, you'll actually find as you get more experienced that if there is doubt
between a green or brown feature or colour screen, you can often deduce it, and for those that are controls, you should obviously utilise the descriptions. Fortunately for the most common confusing features, brown dot knolls or green dot thickets, an area will generally either have a load of knolls or a load of thickets and not very often a mixture of both in
the same part of the area.

Although red/green colour blind myself, but a mapper for over 25 years and currently SYO's mapping officer, it has never been a real problem although the proportion of men who are colour blind, which I believe is 1 in 12, is probably greater amongst current orienteers as those who decided it was a problem will have left the sport.

I don't recall expressly stating that digital printing was particularly bad.....just enquiring if maps could be and were differentiated in some way for those who are colour-blind. The gist of the postings so far would indicate that the mapping and printing techniques have developed in recent years to accommodate this and I am sure that those 'experienced' colour-blind oreienteers already appreciate these improvements. As a newcomer, I can only comment on what is current and know little of the recent improvements in this area.

I cannot differentiate between what appears to me as light green/yellow/orange areas effectively and have to rely on contrast and differences in shading for other areas. Route choice can be somewhat affected. Having competed a number of times in varying terrains, I have come across areas where the magenta lines between control circles just disappear or blend into the map details and do not stand out sufficiently from the detail for me.

[tokoloshe]

With the facilities given by OCAD it would not be impossible to print a map to suit various depths of colour blindness, using tones as well as the colours that do not cause confusion. However another thread is looking at simplification and I would not look forward to the days when entry forms asked for eyesight conditions and required the mapper/printer to produce bespoke maps at the start line, but I suppose Bof could come up with such a policy under the 'All Included' banner

[Legolost]

One member of the GBR squad was colour blind............. he had to go with the flow.

I suppose that if GBR squad members can see the bigger picture and go with the flow, then there's no reason why others can't do the same (including me)

Hey, if I can manage traffic lights without causing a fatal accident then orienteering is no big deal

[EddieH]

I have been involvd with events where certain people are supposed to be given selected maps on a few occasions. It has never worked properly, either because the runners concerned have not bothered when at the start/ map exchange, or because the start team have either not fllowed instructions or not passedthem onto replacements.

I sympathise, and realise that I could become a special case, but ultimately I do not believe that a sport should change to become all-inclusive. Personally I think that the effort that goes into Trail-O (which I don't see as having much in common with O) is too much to ask. If people want to do it - great.

The point about visual disability beina linear rather than an either/ or thing is well made. And if you thinkk that there is no advantage for many in getting a blown up map then just talk to the Elite after they have to run on 1:15000 at Shining Cliff, Brown Clee, Pwll Du ...........

The reality is that there is an optimum enlargement for each individual for each individual map, and course. If the map is really easy to see and the lines do not stretch over large sheets one can navigate on the full run. As the detail gets smaller it becomes necessary to balance stopping to read the detail as happened to me on Sunday where just 30m from the control I didn't bother to stop and wasted 2 minutes. Had the scale been enlarged I would neither have made the mistake nor needed to stop to avoid it.

BOF are right - a level playing field it would not be.