Eyesight and Map Scales

[runnerbean]

I realise I'm a few months late in commenting on this, but just happened to see it...
From the minutes of the March 2007 Rules Group Meeting:
Following an application from an orienteer with significant sight problems for the
provision of a larger scale map than that intended to be used at the event, i.e. at 1:5,000
rather than at 1:10,000, it was agreed that this could be done, but that the competitor
must accept that he or she shall be ‘Non-competitive’. The ability to read the map at the
scale provided is directly relevant to the performance of a competitor and is an essential
part of the sport of orienteering.

Does this anyone else think this is a strange decision (and even at odds with our equality policy)?
Most posts on the subject of map legibility seem to support the view that orienteering is not supposed
to be an eyesight test. Surely using a map that you can read is not gaining an unfair advantage - that should be the default.
Surely using a map you can't read puts you at an unfair disadvantage.
I'd be in favour of allowing people to select their preferred scale when entering an event (not too far into the realms of science fiction).
And one final point, if using a map with a larger scale gives you an unfair advantage, are we going to weight the points
in the new ranking lists according to map scale?!

[IanD]

I'd be in favour of allowing people with genuine eyesight problems to have a larger scale so that they can compete on a more even basis with those with normal eyesight. In other words, I totally disagree with the decision implied by those minutes.

And if people with normal (for their age) eyesight would get an advantage from using a larger scale map, then clearly the map has been produced at the wrong scale, and everybody should be given a larger one.

I've long dreamed of a science fiction world where we have a map printer on the start line, and you turn up with no pre-entry, insert your credit card into the machine, select your course, and set off with your freshly printed map. Now I can extend this vision to select your own map scale as well as course!

[Snail]

One area where this is particularly topical is the appropriate scale for Sprint / Town races etc.

If elites use 1:15000 for classic and 1:5000 maps for sprint, shouldn't M/W45+ (with 1:10000 for classic) need say 1:3000 for sprint races?

I now struggle to read a map that is surveyed and mapped at 1:5000 using ISSOM - the symbols are too small / close together, in the same way that they are on a 1:15000 map.

[DB]

I realise I'm a few months late in commenting on this, but just happened to see it...

Under the subject of eyesight its only understandable

More often than not I struggle with the detail on the 1:15000, running 40L, but the 40S class always uses 1:10000, so its not an age thing. Knowing the map scale before an event helps to make up my mind to run Long or Short, and after the experience of the BOC at Pwll Du this year (where running to the circle was the only navigational option) i would always choose Short if the Long is on a 1:15000.

[Legolost]

This isn't directly following on along the 'map-scale' thread (but is eyesight related) :-

As a relative newcomer to the sport who is red/green colour blind, are there maps for those of us who have this additional hurdle I am guessing that there may be a significant proportion of orienteers who are colour blind, maybe up to 1 in 20 of all male participants

[Gross]

One member of the GBR squad was colour blind. It was possible to change the overprint in test races etc but in normal competitions he had to go with the flow.

[FatBoy]

red/green colour blind

I believe that's why we use magenta not red for overprinting now. I think there was a piece in Focus or somewhere recently reminding everybody to use magenta so you could see it. Does it work for you?

I'm not colourblind per see but tend to struggle with blue/green particularly in dim light so often get wet feet looking for thickets.

Let's ignore the map at BOC Pwll Du from the scale arguments - I think we've long since agreed the map was ridiculous to read at 1:15,000 even for those of us with good eyesight. Most people under 45 with their glasses/lensses on as apporpriate should be able to read a well produced 1:15,000. Two questions for my mind then:

1) Should we "discriminate" against those with a particular eyesight problem just for ease of printing?

2) How do we ensure maps produced for 1:15,000 aren't overmapped, or indeed reduced maps intended for 1:10,000?

Oh and before we go down the "why don't we all use 1:10,000" route again. No! Maps produced at 1:15,000 are fine when done properly, and the whole point of the 1:10,000 for older/younger classes is that it's all enlarged. I actually struggle to read a blown up map as it's too big, and a long leg on 1:10,000 involves a lot of tablecloth sticking out to read all in one go.

[Peter B]

Referring back to the OP, how many other orienteers are in the same boat?

I don't feel that it is fair to not be able to provide a larger scale map for those who need it, or say that they must be non-competitive - we want to get everyone involved in the sport, don't we?

[awk]

An interesting thread PeterB. I never saw this minute, and am disappointed with it, especially being someone who has signficant eyesight problems - I might need the same help one day (and couldn't cope now if we had non-enlarged maps). I see absolutely no reason why this person should have been non-comp - they were working with exactly the same information as everybody else, and as someone else says, if it's an advantage for them, then all it says is that the original mapscale is wrong. Does that mean that magnifiers should be banned as they give an unfair advantage (or even glasses for that matter?!).

It does beg the question though as to when one draws the line on inclusion (can't get your wheelchair around the course?), but I would have thought this was on the 'yes we do it' side, not the 'no, that's too far' side.

I noticed at the O-ringen this year some of the older classes were getting a 1:5000 map when we were on 1:10000 and the younger seniors on 1:15000.

[distracted]

As I'm sure has been said many a time before, probably in the context of 1:15000 maps that are overmapped/reduced from 1:10000:

Orienteering is a navigational sport, not an eyesight test.

[Adventure Racer]

2) How do we ensure maps produced for 1:15,000 aren't overmapped, or indeed reduced maps intended for 1:10,000?

Apologies for leading this thread down such an obvious side track, but surely there should simply be a rule that unless an area has actually been mapped at 1:15,000 it isn't allowed to use maps at that scale. I understand that for those of us in the younger age groups we are expected to use 1:15,000 maps for serious races, but despite having very good sight I still struggle to read the reduced symbols whilst running at speed when this happens (as it did recently at an event I competed in - not helped by gloomy light in the forest that day I guess!) In case anybody is listening and hasn't yet got the point, it would be much better for us to run on 1:10,000 if you haven't got a proper 1:15,000 map - in the recent case, the area we were orienteering in would still have fit in A4 at 1:10,000!

[Oldman]

I don't think the original decision was wrong. The issue is that the conditions must be the same for everyone for a competition to be fair. If I am less flexible and can't get down a steep slope as fast as someone else, have I the right to demand that such slopes be eliminated? Of course not!

We must all accept the limitations of our own bodies (becomes sadly more obvious as you get older ). Competition requires an even playing field, not just one runner with a higher scale map.

They can still run though if they can arrange a larger scale copy, which the organisers should try to provide if they possibly can.

[AndyO]

I think we should draw a distinction between those of us who would benefit from having a larger scale map because of deteriorating eyesight, particularly those of us who have to experiment with single-vision lenses with one set for distance and one set for reading the map (I now have to use these plus O-reading glasses, grrr), and those who are in a real sense technically blind. There was someone I knew at work who had to have a specially adapted PC screen to see the characters, but he got that reasonable support under the inclusion policy. I think that offering a larger scale map to such people is entirely reasonable, and to try to make them n/c is just being officious, as anyone with severe eyesight problems is not going to be competitive anyway.

There was a competitor at the 6 Days who was provided with a larger scale map for each day, with no difficulty. Because of the nature of the request, organisers need advance notice to print the map and course at a different scale, so it is not likely to get out of hand. As Peter B says, we should be encouraging people into the sport.

[Oldman]

I think we should draw a distinction between those of us who would benefit from having a larger scale map because of deteriorating eyesight, ... and those who are in a real sense technically blind.

Such a distinction cannot be made: there is a spectrum of disability from "best eyesight for your age" at one end to "completely blind" at the other. The only way is to recognIse that eyes (like legs or ankles etc) wear out as you age and you must learn to compete on equal terms with others despite your own particular personal handicap. If sadly your legs cannot cope with rough terrian, you may be forced to do orange courses or even give up altogether. The same is true of eyes: no difference!

[Peter B]

I think we should draw a distinction between those of us who would benefit from having a larger scale map because of deteriorating eyesight, ... and those who are in a real sense technically blind.

Such a distinction cannot be made: there is a spectrum of disability from "best eyesight for your age" at one end to "completely blind" at the other. The only way is to recognIse that eyes (like legs or ankles etc) wear out as you age and you must learn to compete on equal terms with others despite your own particular personal handicap. If sadly your legs cannot cope with rough terrian, you may be forced to do orange courses or even give up altogether. The same is true of eyes: no difference!

If you've got weak legs or ankles then yes, you may be forced to run a shorter course.

But what do you do if you can't actually read the map, even with the aids available?