EMIT Question

[sgb]

At today's wonderful Warwick race, my EMIT card claimed I'd missed a control. Number 40 (152), just before I missed the uncrossable wall on my map and headed up the dead-end to the west of leisure centre. It took me a while to work out what had happened afterwards, but I think the problem was in that I'd punched the previous control less than fifteen seconds previously: so when I checked my card I discovered that lo, it had registered something.

I orienteer because I enjoy the activity, not because I care about ranking points and such, but it's mildly irritating to be included on the DSQ list when I know full well that been to the control. (Especially when I've had a very good run. Maybe I'm more competitive about this than I'd thought...) I also don't see that there is really anybody to blame other than me. So I'm just curious about what other people think about this situation.

I think it would have been a tad silly for me to have stood around for ten seconds to wait for my EMIT card to stop scrolling. I could have recorded my backup punch, but I find that's slow and instead check that my card's registered as I'm leaving the control.

Any thoughts? To add to the mix, I generally like EMIT, and thought that the planning that had these two controls close together was great.

[Roger]

...but I think the problem was in that I'd punched the previous control less than fifteen seconds previously.

I don't believe that a 15 sec limit is the cause of your problem -- my split from 41 to 42 was 7 seconds*, and this seems to have been processed properly.

*mainly because I'd stood around wondering where #41 was, before realising that (a) I'd attacked off the corner of the skate park as if it was the corner of the building (b) the boy on his bike up on top of the knoll was obscuring the control.

I agree that it was a wonderful race.

[Angry Haggis]

I had the same problem at the same control - at all the others, tapping the card at the correct end was enough for it to register. For this one, you needed to hold the card in the slot for a second or two for it to register. Maybe the battery in the unit was low? The problem was as you say compounded by it being only a few metres from the previous one, so that the card was already displaying scrolling lines. I had to go back and repunch it after I realised the split looked unrealistic (it was from the previous, much longer leg.) It's always frustrating being disqualified on a technicality like this (equipment not behaving as expected) - unfortunately the rule book would probably say you have to press the card in, rather than the quick tapping that we got away with for the rest of the course.

[distracted]

Roger > I think the point is that the card was still scrolling from the previous control that had been punched.

Two ways of avoiding this - check the display as your card is in the control and the control number should show, and you can also press the red button at any time to reveal the last control number. The former is probably far easier to do with the contact-free controls. But agreed, the "check the screen on the way out of the control" system has its flaws on sub 15 second splits. I think the EMIT bars only used to scroll for 6 seconds, which would have avoided this problem; I forget why they changed this.

Angry Haggis > the quick punching was generally fine, the only one I didn't register on immediately was #41, probably because it wasn't there for long enough. It may cost a few seconds but worth the check! The rule book claims it's your responsibility to check that you have punched correctly...

[mikey]

Touch free would have been handy at #16 today. I reckon it would have registered through the fence without the faff of having to go all the way round to the right side of the fence.

[johnloguk]

Despite having a version 3 card I never checked for the scolling today for some reason, so I didn't have that problem. But I know from one personal experience with SI how frustrating it is to be DQD when you know damn well you punched. But the bottom line is that both SI and Emit are so superior to pin punches that I can't see how we can do anything but put up with these frustrations when they happen. Maybe one day there will be a totally foolproof system, but I doubt it.

[Roger]

Roger > I think the point is that the card was still scrolling from the previous control that had been punched.

Ah, I see -- so the issue is not that this prevented punching (as I first interpreted the posting), but that it obscured the relevant feedback of 'this control has not registered'.

For what it's worth, I had to return and re-punch the previous control because my punch had not registered and I couldn't see any scrolling bars. I'd have been scuppered if this had happened to me one control later. And there were a few units where I saw scrolling bars but no flashing light. (The cave was the other way round -- too dark to see the bars, but the red light was almost dazzling!)

[awk]

the quick punching was generally fine

Lucky you! I had a horrible time with my hire card: failing to register most of the time when trying to quick punch (I gave up about half way round), and then struggling to get the card in flat on several controls when the 'slot' wasn't really set up with punching flat in mind (especially when carrying round on right hand). On at least two occasions I had to go back even when it had been put in the slot as scroll bars didn't appear; forget the red lights, they just didn't prove a thing. As I said on the Warwick Today thread, having not liked Emit at all prior to V3 cards, I'd grown to find it OK this year - but this event brought all the doubts flooding back; a very, very frustrating experience. Thank goodness the orienteering was so good.

[sgb]

The rule book claims it's your responsibility to check that you have punched correctly...

Yes... the problem being that I'd checked and thought it had registered correctly. Were it the case that there had been no scrolling bars I would have known my punch hadn't registered. I can see that maybe I should have taken more care to check that the split was accurate, perhaps by checking that the split was realistic, but I feel that there's a case of being damned by one or damned by the other: punch quickly and risk something like this going wrong or lose a couple of seconds at every control faffing to get the back-up punch (and that's 1:36 extra with 43 controls)!

But the bottom line is that both SI and Emit are so superior to pin punches that I can't see how we can do anything but put up with these frustrations when they happen. Maybe one day there will be a totally foolproof system, but I doubt it.

Agree completely - I find pin punching as frustrating as EMIT and comparing splits is part of the fun. Would certainly not want to go without e-punching!

[distracted]

or lose a couple of seconds at every control faffing to get the back-up punch (and that's 1:26 extra with 43 controls)!

I think the checking screen whilst card is in contact with the control is the best way, may cost half a second or so. Or suggest to Alan/Emit UK that the confirmation sequence should change - perhaps to show the control number you have just punched for 5 seconds after leaving the control, then the scrolling bars?? Probably other/better ways of doing it, but that's one thought...

[andy]

My advice to anyone using any form of electronic punching to make 100% sure you have punched.

EMIT version 3 has the screen you can check by pressing the button? Surely at some point on the leg (even if it was scrolling at the time of the punch) after the one you 'missed' you had the chance to check it had punched? If you have the opportunity at all, use it!

Similar with SI, make sure you hold it in for 2 beeps / flashes if you are in any doubt, I know I do.

Surely a few seconds extra making sure is better than a DSQ?

These systems are generally very robust, if it says you didn't visit that control, and everyone else on the course did visit it, then you didn't

[Angry Haggis]

Surely a few seconds extra making sure is better than a DSQ?

This like saying surely you should walk the race, to make sure you have enough time to navigate. Yes... but you aren't going to win races by walking.

"A few seconds" * 43 controls = an awful lot of time! Bear in mind also that at least three of the legs yesterday were only a few seconds long.

I'm sorry, but I have to say it straight - EMIT's lack of obvious feedback (e.g. a beep or bright light) is the root cause of the problem here, it means competitors, to remain competitive, either need to take a risk, or develop a cumbersome checking technique that distracts from the main exercise - navigating and moving through the terrain at speed.

[awk]

I have to say I agree AH. I was deeply disappointed with the slowness of response and unreliability of registering. But not a risk; rather a dead cert that if I hadn't hung around waiting for cards to register and going back at controls I would have got dsq'd, no doubt about it.

[SJC]

EMIT's lack of obvious feedback (e.g. a beep or bright light)

So what is the red thing that flashes on the EMIT box then ?

[Angry Haggis]

EMIT's lack of obvious feedback (e.g. a beep or bright light)

So what is the red thing that flashes on the EMIT box then ?

There were 43 controls yesterday. I saw the flashes on 1 of those controls - the one that was underground, in an unlit cellar. Those lights ain't bright, especially in sunlight.

With nearly 100 people on my course, people were often 1-2 seconds apart at some controls - I'm never sure that the unit isn't flashing because of the person that was there 1 second before. (EMIT experts can probably clarify this - I've always been weirded out by the things flashing when there's no card touching them.) So I generally don't look for the lights - I'm looking at my map, planning my next leg.

Just to add a point to my previous post - my technique yesterday was to "tap" the larger end of the EMIT control with the business end of my EMIT card, and then to glance at the display to check I could see scrolling lines. Obviously, if this technique had not worked after a few controls, I would have started to take more time to do the punch. However, it worked fine for the first 39 controls in the race - just not the 40th. (i.e. the "tap" didn't register, and the scrolling lines were an artifact from the previous control.)