Dogs

[ruth]

absolutely brilliant article i totally agree! dogs should be banned from all events and anywhere where someone might want to go training without some hound trying to chase/bite/scare them. and definitely also get rid of all owners who have ever said 'he won't hurt you!' ...are you sure?! (those of you who know me well will know why i have this opinion...)

[HOCOLITE]

Dog Lover not Dog owner, that is me. I enjoy meeting orienteers with their dogs in the car park and assembly when they are allowed. I have some good friends who have dogs and they generally go to events. If they are not allowed on the campsite they camp elsewhere, if they are not allowed in the car park a family member finds somewhere where they can walk them.
Mrs H did have major problems with rude owners, but the sport cannot and should not be no dogs. Orienteers should follow the criteria set down in the details and be responsible whether it be re dogs, children, noise levels etc.

[Tatty]

However I do know of one family who have dogs who look at the OS map to see if there are Public rights of way and think then the no dogs rule doesn't apply to them It does not help the ourse of those owners who do follow the rules .

[EddieH]

The Scottish Executive have more faith in people than Mrs H and others do in orienteers. It is now legal to take your dog "under control" - not necessarily on a lead anywhere that you have the right to roam - this includes through fields of animals.

Nevertheless if a landowner or an organised event says "no" to dogs it would be insane to insist on this right. That will do nothing to good relations with the sport.

[graeme]

Legally, you can get away with rather a lot if the dog has "never done that before".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/mers ... 987128.stm

[greywolf]

The Scottish Executive have more faith in people than Mrs H and others do in orienteers. It is now legal to take your dog "under control" - not necessarily on a lead anywhere that you have the right to roam - this includes through fields of animals.

Nevertheless if a landowner or an organised event says "no" to dogs it would be insane to insist on this right. That will do nothing to good relations with the sport.

Eddie sorry that's not quite right. SOAC contains specific guidance for dog walkers (and other recreational users)which have some exclusions. The following is cut and pasted from http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com

"Access rights apply to people walking dogs provided that their dog(s) is kept under proper control. Your main responsibilities are: never let your dog worry or attack livestock; do not take your dog into fields where there are lambs, calves or other young animals; do not take your dog into fields of vegetables or fruit unless there is a clear path, such as a core path or a right of way, but keep your dog to the path; if you go into a field of farm animals, keep your dog(s) on a short lead or under close control and keep as far as possible from the animals; if cattle react aggressively and move towards you, keep calm, let the dog go and take the shortest, safest route out of the field; during the bird breeding season (usually April to July), keep your dog under close control or on a short lead in areas such as moorland, forests, grassland, loch shores and the seashore; in recreation areas and other public places avoid causing concern to others by keeping your dog under close control or on a short lead; and pick up and remove your dog’s faeces if it defecates in a public open place.

If you're taking part in an organised event, it's different, because the organiser will have needed to obtain the permission of the land manager, who will therefore have been able to set conditions, i.e. no dogs, etc.

"If you are organising an event, you need to obtain the permission of the relevant land manager(s) if your event needs new or temporary facilities and services (such as car parking, fencing, signs, litter bins, marked courses or toilets); or is likely, due to the nature of the event or the number of participants or spectators, to hinder land management operations, interfere with other people enjoying the outdoors or affect the environment to an unreasonable extent."

It's a bit like the situation where the land manager or SNH has insisted on Out of Bounds - like at Culbin in last month's S6D - any individual has the right to walk in those areas, but do it as a competitor and you'll be dq'd

sorry to anyone not in Scotland for whom all the above is completely irrelevant...

[Jon Brooke]

Have to say this is one of the most pointless discussions ever (and now I've been sucked in - doh!)

If you've got a dog and an event says no dogs - don't take the dog.

If you're as dog-phobic as a couple of people here seem to be and an event is open to dogs (to whatever extent) - don't go (but then again, probably best not to leave the house on foot either)

And if you're an event organiser and have publicised "no dogs" and someone brings one - send them home

Clearly, some people like dogs and some people don't like dogs (I do) but equally clearly there is no "right answer"

[johnloguk]

Taking a slightly different tack, which I admit maybe should be a separate thread I wonder if the people that Mrs H fell out with over their dogs are the same people who abuse car park attendants, volunteers on registration, entries officials over the phone etc? I suspect they are. Some people just think they are always right, they believe that they have loads of rights but no responsibilities to others, that rules are for other people etc.

Has anyone ever been banned from an event because of abusive behaviour to officials, or anyone else for that matter. Anyone ever been thrown off a camp site for repeatedly being a moron? I worry that actually doing anything about these folk is so fraught with potential difficulties that we just put up with them and come on Nopesport to moan about them. Which doesn't do anything about the original morons, just generates a lot of hot air on here

[martyn]

Has anyone ever been banned from an event because of abusive behaviour to officials, or anyone else for that matter.

Our club gave serious discussion to this following an extraordinary experience with one particular person a couple of years ago. Entry to events is always at the Organisers' discretion, and we felt completely justified in adopting such a ban given the circumstances. However, the situation subsequently resolved itself, so it was never tested.

[bedders]

As someone who once spent 2 years seriously ill because of a dog (or cat, I'm not sure which) I have to say that most people have made valid points on both sides. Dogs can be an absolute nuisance, but despite what Mrs. H wrote in her article they can't really be disallowed from orienteering events because of their behaviour towards humans. If it is lambing season, or there are other livestock in the area then it's totally understandable that they shouldn't be allowed. But on the other hand, orienteering is an outdoor family sport and dogs often form a very important part of that.

I for one think that the title of this thread is inaccurate. Dogs themselves aren't the problem, it's dog owners who refuse to cooperate or see the reasons for dogs not being allowed. Oh and owners who don't pick up the poo. That could in fact be the worst thing about inconsiderate dog owners.

[EddieH]

Slightly off the dog topic, but picking up on Jonloguk's potential banning of punters, there is one man that were I on registration I would refuse point blank to deal with. I have no idea who he is and hope he reads this - he might even be a bit embarassed.

I came across a confrontation at the burger van at the Scottish 6 day this year. It turned out that customer A on ordering his food had passed a tenner to customer B assuming him to be on the staff. Customer B had pocketed it and refused to give it back. He actually said to me "If he's so stupid as to give his money to me that's his fault"!!!!!!!!!! I think it all got sorted in the end, but when you see behaviour like that it makes you wonder. Fortunately he sticks out like a sore thumb in our sport.

[RS]

I wonder if he was the same one that verbally abused me when I refused him a cheap entry because he was unemployed (and he wanted to pay the cheaper child price available before closing date!)
Unfortunately, (in my opinion) in my club I was over-ruled and he got what he wanted.

Incidentally, is there any guidance on rates for unemployed?

[T5]

Is all this talk of dogs and no-dogs going to end up with a warning from British Orienteering for failing to comply with another discrimination policy?

Maybe the apparent lack of equality in the senior squad (discussed in another thread) is wrong - it could be that it has been perfectly balanced in terms of dog owners and non-dog owners...

[SYO Member]

RS and EddieH, that bloke gets around a bit! He was at one of our events a few years ago loudly complaining that his wife's result hadn't been put up, but it turned out that she hadn't actually handed in her control card.

Anybody else come across him?

[old lough]

So its time for me to come out ... I am a dog phobic. I only have to see one, no matter what size on a lead or not and I begin to freeze. If one comes towards me I panic ... I have tried to do something about this but my good resolutions to be strong etc come to nothing if a dog runs towards me. For this reason I have pretty well stopped orienteering on country parks, public areas etc and even when we go out for a walk now we are likely to walk in a town rather than in the country. The advent of extending leads has made life even worse. I try to go past dogs that are on leads but now I just have to stand at the side and hope that the dog does just go past and not notice me.

I just can't understand why there can't be areas for people with dogs and areas for people who don't want to be bothered by them ... no amount of 'he won't hurt you' or 'he/she only wants to play' means anything to me.

I have no answers to this but Mrs H's piece has given me the opportunity to make a plea to all dog owners ... not all people are fond of dogs and your concept of 'he/she is under control' might not be appropriate for a dog phobic ... it is just about consideration ... please