start squad

[fish]

mharky - what is your criteria for deciding if someone 'amounts to nothing'?

It is true that to a large extent it is dependent on the individual, how much they can get out of themselves, and the very very best are likely to do well whatever their circumstances. However presumably squads (particularly at younger age) are about developing and raising the overall standard of orienteering - alongside fast-tracking some of the possible stars. A national federation clearly has to look at what is the best approach given a certain amount of funding, and hence the discusison about what is happening at the moment.

[candyman]

In the lead up to London 2012 it is not likely that British Orienteering will be able to maintain current funding levels and in this climate it is not feasible to try and maintain squad sizes across the board. The Start Squad will not be the only one to suffer from reduced numbers.

Up to and including 2007 100% of World Class funding (which funds, Start, Junior and Senior Programmes) has come from government funding bodies and this money always has strings attached which necessarily results in programmes with a particular emphasis and philosophy (which is directed by the funding body). If British Orienteering (I mean all the members, clubs and regions here - not the evil faceless governing body) wanted to move towards a different philosophy, change programmes or add new programmes it can easily be done if funds come from a different area (eg increase in event levies, increase in membership fees etc). The Programmes funded by Sport England and UK Sport may not be able to fulfill those roles!

Perhaps what we should be doing is trying to work out ways to reinvigorate the regional squads? Which regional squads are successful and why? What can be done to help less successful regions? What can we do to inspire more juniors to excel, compete and develop even if they can't all be included in the Start Programme? What can British Orienteering do to help regional squads? How much will it cost and where will the money come from?

I would like to see more competition between the regions, perhaps including a team competition as part of the FCC? That way a lot more juniors will have results which count towards something instead of just the top 4 or 5 in the age class. I would also like to see more cooperation between the regions (coordinated by the Start/Junior Programmes manager) so more athletes can have the opportunity of training in new areas and have more training opportunities.

Should there be more support and funding available to groups like the EDS to provide training opportunities? Where could this money come from?

I'm sure plenty of other people have more ideas and probably better ones than i do and I would certainly be interested in hearing any of them. Why not talk to your club and region as well and get them to take a proposal to British orienteering?

[Mrs H]

That is an informative and constructive reponse Candyman and provides us with something to think about.

Out of interest - will the cuts impact on you? Or put less delicately - with fewer athletes to manage is there any chance that you might have more time to throw a spot light onto the regional squads to see what they are actually up to?

[harry]

The East Midland squad has always punched above it's weight being a small region lacking in terrain. The JIRC results & number of international orienteers to come from the region stand out especially back in the day, the Godfree & Buckley era (I guess Kim and those guys inspired me & my peers and hopefully the effect goes on although unfortunately/thankfully the purple paisley tops are only a distant memory...)

The main reason for all that was because of the people involved & their unending enthusiasm eg. Judy & Steve Buckley, Dave Smalley and for the last 15 years Hilary & Pauline + Jim Clarke etc. Now Richard Robinson one of the many to benefit is taking the squad forward.

As usual the key is time & effort rather than £££ so I guess ideally we should all go back and put something into our squads or the local squad where we live now.

As for Mharky's "trying-to-be-controversial-as-usual" comment about "prolonging the careers of those who'll amount to nothing" ...err.. HARSH. Who knows what his criteria are but what if the juniors go on to become top planners or coaches is that amounting to nothing? And does it really matter as long as it was fun?

[mharky]

UK Sport's World Class programme has 1 very clear goal; podium performances.

Hundreds of thousands of pounds are not being invested to create the next generation of planners, or people who have had "fun".

Harsh, but true.

[candyman]

Mrs H, I certainly hope to do just that, to my mind the healthier the regional squads are the healthier the Start, Junior and Senior programmes will be. In the current climate of regionalised funding from Sport England there should be some great opportunities for regional squads to get extra support and funding.

[fish]

Yes, UK sports goal is podium (really meaning medals) performances - and probably only at the world champs.
The problem seems to be how funding works. There are a very very small number of people who will end up with medals. does that mean we don't fund/support anyone who won't be at that level, and also how do we decide if they will be. Unfortunately getting funding through UK sport to raise the overall standard (and when i talk overall standard I still mean at the top end) is becoming harder.
Looking at the start program - for orienteering, I think it is always going to be difficult to say that we are picking our future medallists at this age. Therefore, in my opinion, even though it has been funded by UK sport, the benefits of the start program are: raising the overall level, and giving more people an idea of what it will take. For me, if this happens, and if the juniors enjoy it, it is a good thing. But, I have to agree with you Mharky that in the specifics of UK Sport goals, it looks like it doesn't match their criteria. For this reason I see the start program struggling. However, I still have a more basic problem with the philosophy that not winning medals amounts to nothing.
I second the thanks to candyman for his reply. It really looks to me that the set-up of the national system will have to change, I like the discussions on co-ordinated cooperation between regions, and also some sort of team competition. At the older end, depending on how small the junior and senior world-class funded squads become, i can certainly see an effort to provide a little more support to things like EDS being worthwhile (although I guess it would, and in my opinion should, remain somewhat self-funded).

[freaky_phil]

Re - regional squads, I fully agree with what has been said so far, they are very important in providing a framework for juniors to learn, train and race amongst their peers. Certainly in Wales we are very fortunate to have Mark Saunders and Alice Bedwell as junior squad coaches and with Kate as Team Manager the juniors train once each weekend from Oct - Mar and have just come back from a 10 day tour in Sweden that Mark was able to set up thru Matt Speake. The experiences they had on the tour will stay with them for a long time and hopefully with encourage them to train and achieve greater things.

[mharky]

However, I still have a more basic problem with the philosophy that not winning medals amounts to nothing.

I was thinking more about people who go from being in the Worlc Class programme to hardly ever orienteering... that to me is amounting to nothing in the eyes of the World Class Programme.

And anyway, my point wasn't that these people shouldn't be on the programme, because as you say, at that age you don't really know who will make it. What I was saying was that it doesn't matter because anyone who has the attitude to actually make the podium doesn't need to be on the World Class programme.

[fish]

What I was saying was that it doesn't matter because anyone who has the attitude to actually make the podium doesn't need to be on the World Class programme.

Surely we should be providing a world class programme that is important to these people. Yes, it's true that an individuals attitude is crucial, but the programme must be helping to facilitate their goals, and (to be really worthwhile) giving them something extra that they otherwise wouldn't/couldn't have.

actually, I think that to some extent I agree with you, in that the motivated do get off their own arse and do things whatever their situation. From my own perspective, prior to harldy ever orienteering... I put in as much time and effort when i was not in the squad system, as when I was in it.
However - keeping to the start squad discussion - we still need overall development and encouragement in this age range and need to find mechanisms for that to work as well as possible.

[RogYoman]

maybe the most important thing about the start squad to the people in it is the mental impact it has on them. Maybe the pride of being selected is worth more than material benefits. I'm not sure what point this is making but at least it proves that the start squad isnt useless

[harry]

Hundreds of thousands of pounds are not being invested to create the next generation of people who have had "fun".

Anyone who makes it as far as winning any medals will have had a lot of fun. It's probably best not to drum into kids how they are not there to have fun. It's no holiday camp but if you don't think training is fun you aren't going to get very far. You are going to put yourself through a lot of pain & end up disappointing Mharky and his pal "the eyes of the World Class programme" by "amounting to nothing"
Anyway I best be off training now, whilst I'm running I'll think long & hard about the thousands of pounds that have been invested in me and try not to enjoy myself at all.

[Mrs H]

the juniors train once each weekend from Oct - Mar .

Is that what you really meant to say - if it is that is very impressive and probably more than I as a parent would want to sustain. Or perhaps you meant one weekend each month which sounds about right as something to try and maintain across the country - it equates to what is done for us here in the West Midlands which seems to have produced a fair stream of top juniors depsite limited 5* terrain

BTW I am inclined to agree with Harry about "amounts to nothing" evaluations. Afterall suposing the start Squad produced someone who was not capable of gaining medals but turned into the most prodigious and inpsirational squad boss whose own proteges went on to dominate the sport - all as a result of the insight they had gained themselves in the squad - or some such similar scenario

[Nottinghamshire outlaw]

Crikey Mrs H - agreeing with Harry!!! Have you been on the red wine early!!!

[Nottinghamshire outlaw]

My apologies Mrs H for the previous comment - In no way was I meaning to cause offence and jesting should not be part of this serious discussion.