start squad

[Mrs H]

I've been saying that for years - directly to BOF and I wrote an article in Compasssport quiet recently pointing out the wastage of investing in sub 16s when so many of our best seem to be late developers.

Incidentally RS - having three Championship Standards in you first few months of your first year in an age class doesn't guarantee anything - not even a summer tour - i can absolutely confirm that!

[Patrick]

Firstly I can't understand how they can publish the squad selections when they have not even sent out the last tour reports. My daughter thought that she had done quite well on tour, even though she did have a nightmare on the classic race, however she did win the middle race.

Secondly look at my daughters results from this small selection of races post and pre tour; SINS JW5L, Individual Junior Inter Regionals W16,Scottish 6 days W16 and white Rose JW5L and then tell me she is not on par with the other 4 girls selected.

Selection of M/W15+ is based on summer tour reports,
supplemented by performance in selection races and Regional Squad reports.

None of the results you mention are from named selection races, so they aren't relevant to selection. In addition, some of them are "holiday events" which should never (IMHO) be considered for selection purposes.

Where I do agree with you (I think) is in the use of tour reports as a selection tool. I don't see how they can be objective and unbiased, or act as a measure of orienteering ability/potential, and having skimmed the BOF General Selection Policy I'm not sure this complies with it. I should add that I'm glad it wasn't done when I was a junior!

Cheers,

Patrick

[bedders]

OK then Patrick, they technically aren't selection races, but deny that she is as good as any of the girls who got selected and doesn't have the potential to do well in international competition. Go on.

Yes selection criteria is always a talked about topic but that gold medal at world schools obviously shows she has the ability to perform under pressure, which is such a major problem at the world champs and suchlike.

[harry]

To motivated juniors:

Whether you're on the start squad or not
Look at where you are now
Decide where you want to be
Set some goals
Work out what you need to do to get there (What are the best people doing?)
Plan some training, a step up from what you are doing now
Think about physical technical & mental aspects
Plan your season: Practice races, Test races, Target races
Make it fun, join up with other motivated juniors & local runners
Email a top local senior orienteer
Are they doing any training you can join in with?
Do they have any advice for you?

Treat your selection or lack of selection as a motivator.
Always remember to believe in yourself even if it sometimes seems like noone else does!
When the senior squad cull is announced next week, I'll be out in Czech Republic training for WOC 2008 and it is fairly irrelevant to my plans whether I'm on the list or not.

Also don't see it as a big disadvantage if your name's not down. Start Squad members might get some extra support and a couple of extra training weekends but the effort you put in day-to-day, 95% of the time, is more important.

ps If you've got a gold medal from the World Schools, go have a look at it right now, do you believe you can win more of them? maybe at the British Champs next year? Maybe at JWOC in a couple of years time? If you want to, then go for it!

[Becks]

Helen has got it spot on there. As a senior who's on her way up, having gotten to this point pretty much by self determination and eons of help from knowledgeable people in many fields, none of whom are GB squad related, it's what you do day to day and the effort you make in creating opportunities for yourself that's important.

Join EDS, get your mates together and plan training, trips to big continental events, if your Junior squad isn't pulling it's weight then do something about it. Never be scared to ask for help - older experienced athletes are the best sources of information - just don't ask them on the start line! No one has ever told me to get lost, and without support from them I'd have given up a long time ago.

It's hard work, and takes determination, but if you can't find this level of determination now, how are you ever going to find it to win a medal?

[Patrick]

OK then Patrick, they technically aren't selection races, but deny that she is as good as any of the girls who got selected and doesn't have the potential to do well in international competition. Go on.

I have absolutely no idea. I don't really follow the results in age classes below 18-20, and I wasn't voicing an opinion as to whether or not any person deserved selection. All I said was that good results in races X, Y and Z are irrelevant if these races are not part of the selection criteria, especially where there is no "all known form" clause. If the athlete in question has strong results from the named selection races then quote them instead. If not, then surely the selectors have a case in not selecting them (I'm aware that there may be other factors such as illness/injury in play here, but that doesn't detract from my main point).

As I said, having looked at the selection policy I don't find it especially clear or transparent, so it's unsurprising that some people will be unhappy with the outcome. Helen and Becks have given the best advice possible to anyone in that situation.

Cheers,

Patrick

[Mrs H]

From the way that Harry uses the word "cull" I guess that the answer to my question at the start of this thread is yes - this is the start of the funding cuts beginning to bite.

Which I suppose takes me in a different direction - could money be diverted from other places to ensure that we have viable squads, for instance Focus magazine and the other glossies we get when any of our team do well.

Personally - I have always thought self-funding was an option - particularly at Start Squad level where grants can sometimes be obtained from local authorities etc towards an individual's costs - but usually you have to be selected before you can access them so it's a bit of a vicious circle if the number of selections are being cut because of the central funding is being cut.

[RogYoman]

I agree with Mrs. H. Why not select double the number of people they selected and politely ask them all to pay half of the overall cost of their start squad benefits. That way, BO would not suffer financially and also indirectly through the lack of talented juniors being nurtured into World Class athletes by the time they are 18.

[mharky]

if gb want to win medals at woc in the future, cutting the start squad size to minimum is a questionable action.

that's right, because only people in the start squad are allowed to go training...

[awk]

A lot of furore over the Start Squad selections, and looking at the numbers selected I can understand why, but speaking as a parent of a now ex-Start Squad member, I'm frankly not overly concerned. Why?.

Well, it comes back to what Duncan said, and my own experience as that parent. What has been offered has been very good: looking at the two long weekends , the coaching, training and organisation was excellent. But that was it.....2 weekends. All the other bits were nice (a bit of kit etc.), but none added anything to improving as an orienteer.

In other words, the value added by the Start Squad has been limited, and nothing that a good regional squad (or set of squads working together) couldn't have offered (most of the coaching staff on these weekends were regional squad coaches after all). To such an extent, that I seriously question the point. There may have been one when there was decent funding (even though I voiced disagreement with having a Start Squad at the time of instigation, and stand by that), but now? In our case, the really important opportunities have come (in no particular order) through the regional squad, the summer tour, our own activities as a family, the kindness of other parents, and offspring's friendships with other juniors.

I think Start Squad could even become even more 'pointless' as EDS and the Regional Squads pick up the slack, because there are a significant number of juniors who have potential who need quality training, and it's not looking like it will happen at a national level, at least not formally.

That maybe not a bad thing; in fact I think it could be a very good thing. But in the meantime, whilst I may not be overly concerned with my parental hat on, if we are going to have a national squad for under-16s it's not good to see it reduced to such straits.

[fish]

I sometimes wonder how much the present set-up within the squad systems (from start all the way upwards) is based on what 'looks' professional, in order to jump through requirements to get funding, rather than what might be 'best' for the development of people. I think it's a hard question to answer, as while there was a large pot of money to aspire to perhaps it was sensible to put in place the programs that would allow access to this money.

If there is now going to be a large cut in funding, then I think the start program is likely to suffer. Given the nature of the sport and the development of juniors, I think it will become questionable as to whether a very small squad is a sensible use of any funding.

If the start program did end up stopping something that seems very important is to know that the coaching within regional junior squads can provide benefit for the better juniors (particularly at M/W16 and up. Is there (or has there ever been) a weekend where the managers and senior coaches of all the regional squads get together (with some of the more senior coaches/ bof development officials) to discuss what can be done for the older/better juniors. i think many squads can provide good support/coaching, but to make the best of the present resources available it may be valuable for the bof coaching structure to know what is happening within all the squads.

fish

[ruth]

i think many squads can provide good support/coaching,
fish

but is 'many' good enough? what happens if you live in a place which doesn't is it really fair to differentiate between the opportunities athletes get because of where they live? there is also the point of terrain experience, the start weekends allows juniors to travel to really good terrain that they may or may not see when they are at home. this is really important for those people who don't live in the lakes or scotland.

if the start squad has to be cut for funding reasons that is unfortunate but i'm sure that bof are doing everything they can to get the most out of the avaliable funding. as some one who's been all the way through it from age 14 scrapping the start squad would be a big mistake.

[fish]

but is 'many' good enough?

Exactly. That's why I was suggesting that it's important for bof to know what is going on in the regional squads. That way they can know if there are areas of people who are not getting the right opportunities, and then find ways to help them.

[ruth]

yeah sorry i was agreeing with you!

start squad is really important for a national unity of our top juniors, some of the most valuable things to be gained from the start squad are the lessons about how to plan and periodise your training, how to train, how to prepare for races, strength training, lifestyle advice, time management etc etc..this means that when you join the junior squad you've already been doing all these things for a few years and its time to see the rewards of hard work rather than just beginning to behave like an elite athlete. this you don't get from a mixed ability regional squad.

[mharky]

If you are going to be good at orienteering then you are going to be good, Start Squad or no Start Squad.

It may prolong the careers of some people who will eventually amount to nothing, but at the end of the day you either have it or you don't.