Silly Ideas

[openadventure]

Sean

Response to your points.

* The events are professionally organised
I LIKE TO THINK SO
but there aren't multiple events every week
MOST WEEKENDS THERE ARE EVENTS

* The fees are usually more than double those for orienteering
BE CAREFUL HERE, YES YOU ARE RIGHT THEY ARE MORE EXPENSIVE BUT INHERENTLY THEY ARE LONGER EVENTS, YOU ARE ALSO NOT COMPARIRING LIKE FOR LIKE.

* There are no Adventure Racing clubs, just teams
CORRECT, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE A FEW SMALL GATHERINGS OF PEOPLE PARTICUARLY AROUND LONDON WHO IN THE WINTER MONTHS GET OUT AND TRAIN TOGETHER.

* There is no governing body and presumably no rules that apply to all events
YEP THAT HAS ITS BENEFITS AND DISADVANTAGES

* Sometimes Juniors are not permitted to enter
CORRECT ALTHOUGH THAT DOES BUG MOST ORGANISERS. THE ONLY WAY I HAVE FOUND AROUND THE LAW IS FOR A MINOR TO BE ACCOMPANIED BY A LEGAL GUARDIAN.

* The maps aren't as detailed as o-maps
GENERALLY USE OS MAPS

* Events take place with official permissions and insurance
YEP THATS RIGHT.

NO SECRETS HERE, MORE THAN WELCOME TO COME ALONG TO AN EVENT HAVE A NOSEY AROUND AND SEE IF YOU CAN PICK UP ANY TIPS ON HOW YOU CAN MAKE O MORE ATTRACTIVE TO A WIDER MARKET.

No worries
James Thurlow
Open Adventure.

[ryeland of doom]

Hopefully not by copying the entry fees. We should make the most of that attractive feature of our sport. It is affordable, especially the small events near the centres of population.


Having said that we need to get noticed - as a sport! Last weekend saw the biggest sports event this year in Scotland. I saw no results and no coverage of this event in the press. Maybe in the outdoor lifestyle sections, but not as a sport. Yet in the 1980's the six days was followable in the press - just as well as in those days, ironically enough I could not afford the fees.

[SYO Member]

James, as you use mainly OS maps, presumably 1:25,000, when you use wooded areas, how do you cope with the following which I posted in another thread last year?

If anything, the OS should pay us a fee to update their maps from our orienteering maps. The current 1:25,000 Explorer which includes SYO's Cawthorne Woods shows tracks and paths as they were nearly 60 years ago before much of the area was replanted. It also shows in Wombwell Wood an extensive quarry which over 30 years ago was filled in, replanted and is now almost mature woodland. I'm sure a similar thing applies in wooded areas across the country.

Maybe Adventure Racers just accept what they are given and don't complain, or courses avoid inaccurate parts of the map. Looking at the Sleepmonsters forum linked from your website, there doesn't seem to be much whingeing about anything. Compare that with what occurs on Nopesport!

[openadventure]

SYO - good point, in the past it has been contentious with some areas (e.g. cannock chase).

First of all I'm very careful about using FC areas, for me running or cycling around gravel tracks rarely discriminates one area to another.

Part of what I do is to take people to areas to enjoy the views and the amazing country we live in. The navigational challenge is just a small part of the event. Hence I don't tend to use FC areas that much.

Where I do, I'm careful in control placements particuarly where beginners might be visiting them (near the start / transition), I generally make them easy to find. If the OS map has paths not on the ground near the control I either airbrush them out in photoshop or put notes on master maps at registration. Likewise if new tracks have been created which could affect navigation I will add them. However I would never pretend to resurvey the area, I've no doubt if you ask our competitors very few would realise that I do it.

No worries
James

[johnloguk]

All of this discussion is very good, but it has been gone over many times before. No offence to anyone who has posted by the way, this is something that frustrates all of us and I know we are all trying to find a way through it.

But I think it comes down to something else that has been flogged to death in other threads, namely that orienteering simply isn't "fashionable". Adventure Racing is fashionable, or certainly more fashionable than orienteering. It is very photogenic, and TV makes the most of the big spectacular ARs in the Andes and similar. It also makes the most of the macho element that is attractive to people at the moment.

Although orienteering hits all the buttons for me, it is increasingly seen as solitary, anoraky, boring even, and certainly not photogenic or macho. Personally I would find the inaccurate maps at Adventure Races totally frustrating, also the inconsistent rules and lottery element in even the most serious competitions.

There are a lot of good initiatives going on in orienteering, you don't need me to repeat them all, but let's just support them and our great sport as much as we all can and try to spread the word.

[openadventure]

QUOTE "Personally I would find the inaccurate maps at Adventure Races totally frustrating, also the inconsistent rules and lottery element in even the most serious competitions."

Don't tar all of us with the same brush!

If I have ever supplied a map where inaccuracies have created problems in finding a control or been inconsistent in the application of applying rules I'm all ears..

James Thurlow
Open Adventure

[Adventure Racer]

Personally I would find the inaccurate maps at Adventure Races totally frustrating, also the inconsistent rules and lottery element in even the most serious competitions.

Whilst I'm not the biggest fan of bad mapping making competitions a bit of a lottery, I'm going to make a quick attempt to defend the indefensible.

Sometimes poor maps are a consequence of where you are - I've raced on 1:100,000 maps in Morocco, and 50 year old maps in the US (strangely these were the most up to date topo available). In both cases whilst you could argue that it's unfair and a lottery, it is the same for everybody, and there are techniques you develop to cope and help improve your "luck". In a sense this goes back to the root of the sport being a real adventure, and the nearest you can get nowadays to being a pioneering explorer without a map at all. You could almost argue that in contrast orienteering is like adventure racing in the gym where everything is much more controlled

Same with AR in the UK on OS maps, but not so extreme - you develop techniques to cope (if they give you nav that's hard enough to need to).

[PeteL]

Quality AR maps are a problem, especially in mountainous areas but I actually think good navigators (orienteers?) are best equipped to deal with this. A number of years ago, I was involved in a multi-day coporate 'Raid' event in the Alps where selective mapping of tracks caused some teams great problems. Competent navigators soon realised this and used the topograhpy as the main navigation tool to their great advantage. It was great fun sneaking past the top teams milling around at spurious track junctions!

Not really the point of the thread but gives me a chance to crow about getting one over on the fit blokes who normally leave me for dust.

[Adventure Racer]

Exactly - top navigators come out on top due to poor mapping, not in spite of it. You soon learn not to rely on tracks if they're not well mapped - at that point those who rely on tracks and can't read the terrain are stuffed.

Has gone well off the original topic now - time for another split "Why it doesn't matter that AR maps are rubbish".

[FatBoy]

Yes some Adventure Races, TQs etc are done on poor maps, or innappropriately scaled maps - e.g. using a 1:50,000 on Cannock Chase will never work. However just because a map is higher scale doesn't mean it's poor. Saying this would be just like saying "I don't know how we orienteer on 1:15,000 now I've tried 1:4,000". Use the correct scale for the job in hand. I have used an orienteering map on and adventure race before (although I have to confess it was very out of date!). Certain organisers do a better job with their maps, and I don't think it's any coincidence that you see quite a few orienteers at Open Adventure events as James does a good job with the maps, and plans excellent courses.

Now trying to steer the topic back from whence it came. Many people trying AR and getting hooked obviously don't mind poor maps, even when they can't read the topography. They are obviously looking for different things than perhaps we strive for as orienteers. I would say one thing that we aren't giving our wannabe adventure racers is adventure. Too many local beginner "friendly" events are held in nothing urban parks and local woods, and beginners are pushed toward these. I think these people would probably find such orienteering fairly boring. These people want to go out on exposed moorland and do brown courses - no reason why we shouldn't let them (although perhaps advising an early start time!).

[johnloguk]

Many people trying AR and getting hooked obviously don't mind poor maps, even when they can't read the topography. They are obviously looking for different things than perhaps we strive for as orienteers.

Can I be slightly provocative while sticking to my original premise about how being fashionable is really important to many people. If you can make millions of people suddenly start drinking Irish cider, or any of a multitude of highly promoted but ultimately c**p products, by making it fashionable, then I contend that the same is true of sports. Orienteering isn't fashionable, Adventure Racing is, or certainly is more fashionable (I'm not saying that AR is a c**p product by the way, so please don't attack me on that one ). I agree that it does offer things that orienteering doesn't, maybe not having too many old beardies hanging around is one , but for many people the "fashion" element is also important.

People will try all sorts of things if they see it as fashionable; art, music, clothes, house decor etc etc. They will avoid like the plague anything they view as unfashionable (insert your own examples!).

If we can make orienteering fashionable we might not even have to change the actual product, just market it differently. OK. now start arguing

[SeanC]

Fashion is a subjective thing. I will argue that orienteering is very fashionable, to the old and bearded

One of the strengths and weaknesses of orienteering is that it aims to suit all ages. A change that suits a single person in their 20's might not suit a family, or the over 50's. My suggestion about compressing start times illustrates the point. In contrast Adventure Racing doesnt seem as suitable for families and older competitors so can aim more for the 20's-40's market and therefore will be more fashionable.

A no brainer though is to increase our spend on marketing and advertising. Overall we have more disposable income. Why not use it to tell more about the sport?

[Adventure Racer]

I would say one thing that we aren't giving our wannabe adventure racers is adventure. Too many local beginner "friendly" events are held in nothing urban parks and local woods, and beginners are pushed toward these. I think these people would probably find such orienteering fairly boring. These people want to go out on exposed moorland and do brown courses - no reason why we shouldn't let them (although perhaps advising an early start time!).

Spot on. On another of your sports, wasn't something similar tried in slalom a few years back (just after I gave up) where they allowed people to enter events at a higher level, so as not to bore those who could paddle whitewater with a Novice course (as it was back then when you still had P/1/2/3/4/N)? How did that work out?

[FatBoy]

Novice division - showing your age now

The scheme you mention is still in place now but doesn't really work that well as it makes it even harder to get into the sport - you effectively need to convince the entry people to enter as a non-ranked person into that division (Div 2 is usual), then find a ranking officer to make a judgement based on your result on what division you should paddle in. It does happen though. However there is a basic problem with cross-over paddlers in the same way there is from running/competent navigators in orienteering. Whitewater paddlers have much of the skill, and polo or sprint paddlers have the fitness, but you do need both in slalom, same as you need running and navigating in orienteering. Polo players are good value for spectators though, paddling really fast then falling in alot

[greywolf]

Fashion is a subjective thing. I will argue that orienteering is very fashionable...

Well there's "fashionable", and then there's "cool", and one objective facet of the latter is that old folk like me (and probably most of the rest of you ) are expressly prohibited from a) being cool b) having any comprehension of who, what or where cool might be at any given time (at least that's what my son says...)

So maybe we should be delegating this aspect of the marketing to the teenagers, and start asking them how would they go about convincing their mates that orienteering is cool, and which particular aspects of the sport (urban/sprint or wild land/adventure) we should be promoting.

There was an interesting thread in the Juniors bit a while ago:

http://www.nopesport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7967

it sounds like Anne did a good job!