JWOC

[Doug T]

a veiw from the inside...

i believe that the coaching, support and opportunity that british juniors get is possibly the best out of all the nations that are at jwoc.
that goes from regional squad, through start, up to the junior squad.
juniors who really want to be at the top also have alot of opportunities to improve themselves, but it is down to the athelete to put the commitment in to make the most of these opportunities. i'm speaking about competing in elite classes at oringen and spring cup etc, and self organised training to scandinavia etc. the juniors in the briish team have done all of these!!

i think that the problem lies with the competition within Great Britain. up to a certain age, M/W16 the competition is great but when atheletes are in M/W18-20 age groups then the competition isn't so great. this is because there are the few atheletes who are training with a veiw to compete well at jwoc and then the majority who compete for domestic results in FCC.
i love competing in my own age class against people my age, but when there are only a handful of people competing for podium places there is a danger that the atheletes at the very top become abit complacent and it is hard to really push to improve.
what i think would really help this, and general junior competition in britain, is a scrapping of seperate M/W18 and 20 courses/classes and run an under 20s course where prizes are still given for top 18s.and it is bull if the argument against this is because M20 courses are too hard for 18s, they are too easy for 20s at the moment!!!
i think it is terrible that the top 20s are tempted into running 21 because of poor courses and to get more competition, this completely devalues junior competition in britain.but to achieve my aim of jwoc medals im thinking about it.

oh and jwoc was great. after some really good performances everyone is looking forward to JEC and JWOC 2008 knowing that with abit more training and effort top tens are possible!

[Becks]

I think Doug has hit the nail on the head. Having visited the Czech Republic last week, although they have a bigger pool of participants as AWK says, we came to the conclusion that the reason we seem to be "underperforming" (I personally think tere were some excellent JWOC results in there) internationally is the lack of need to ever "step up" to a really high quality competition with a high quality field in Britain. I think our athletes are wonderfully prepared physically and technically, but where I really struggled at the World Cup Races was in the psychological approach to the races. We have a psychologist available to the squad but there is absolutely no substitute for racing in huge races with great fields and learning what works best for yourself in preparation and the mental toughness involved. This is the one area where to practice and improve in, you still have to go and spend time in the Scandinavian Countries or those emerging Eastern European Nations, where a minutes mistake in the races costs tens of places, not 3 or 4. The fact that the Czechs won so many medals I think does prove the neutrality of the terrain at JWOC, the fact that they won shows how valuable thosehigh end racing opportunities are.

[Mrs H]

I guess the idea behind the FCC was to provide those opportunities at home - if it's not working then why isn't it (perhaps as Doug says the courses are not tough enough) are there other reasons and what can be done to put it right.

It seems a shame to have a ready made series of events which some people at least take seriously if they are not reall of any value.

do you think pre-selection should be dropped to make the series more competitive for instance?

[Gross]

britain, is a scrapping of seperate M/W18 and 20 courses/classes and run an under 20s course where prizes are still given for top 18s.and it is bull if the argument against this is because M20 courses are too hard for 18s, they are too easy for 20s at the moment!!!
i think it is terrible that the top 20s are tempted into running 21 because of poor courses and to get more competition, this completely devalues junior competition in britain.but to achieve my aim of jwoc medals im thinking about it.!

M/W 20E is combined with M/W21E in Lithuania (same course, seperate classes).... there's no reason that the top 20's shouldn't be racing in senior classes in the majority of domestic competitions in the UK. It adds strength in depth to both fields. It would enhance the juniors. Years ago.... before FFC etc... how many M/W19's ran their class... very few!

[rob f]

The point is well made by Doug. I give you the year i was in M16, 2004, the selection races used for start were 1 down south, the british at northumberland, graythwaite jk (1+2) and the Triple O 7 national. Now on the two fastest of these, 12 or 13 athletes were seperated by minutes. 2 years later, 2 minutes at the british seperated 4, doug, john, rhodri and dave (i think). This cant only be due to the added demands of longer courses, and potentially more climb. There is a lack of drive of training for those under the start and potential (junior) squads to try and work hard. For example, as im sure has been mentioned before, I was dropped from the former in 2005, after illness. I was given one phone call of support, and a couple of emails (from becks among others, thanks) but nothing from those who dropped me, even telling me i was dropped. This can inspire two reactions, utter dejection or determination to prove people wrong. I wish i had the drive to do the following, that people like john and dave had. But it is maybe part of this that is to do with the drop in competition. That and also the lack of the second level below start. Next week another 24 14 year olds will be given quality coaching and improve their orienteering. But 10 at the most will probably be selected. Another 5 will be determined to try, but the other 9 will just go back to their regions and carry on. Its things like Bex's brilliant idea of EDS that need to be put into place to help these people improve. Even if its just an assignment of top quality coaches or athletes, or whether its a once a year tour. At the end of the day, we need to have a set up when every athlete in the British Squad has worked for selection, rather than it being expected of them as there are only 5 athletes at there level. Its the losses that occur at 14 and 18 which need to be sorted

[FatBoy]

Years ago.... before FFC etc... how many M/W19's ran their class... very few!

Very true. M19 was full of top 15's and 17's - top 19's ran 21.

If we didn't have a big enough pool of athletes then then we sure don't now.

One way of looking at it, as many other sports do, is to say we need a bigger pool of athletes. See all the fallout from Wimbledon, cricket world cup, etc - all saying to improve we need more at grass roots. Sure that would do it, but easier said than done.

The other way of looking at it, is to work harder on the athletes we do have. Improving competition for older juniors, second level squads, elite level coaching available more at club level. I think we could just be addressing most of those, thanks to determined individuals (thanks Becks). One thing that hasn't really happened yet though, as Doug says, and others before, is that domestic competition is a bit of a mess. I think we need to seriously reduce the number of age classes on offer at the top level to give bigger pools of competition, and the courses need to be of proper length for the classic distances. I personally think adding a M20E class was a nonsense. As Gross says, M19A was a bit of a non-course anyway, and now it's been split in two! I would say with the numbers we have combine M20A, M20E, M21L, M21E, M35L into one proper course, same for the ladies.

[rosco]

with the numbers we have combine M20A, M20E, M21L, M21E, M35L into one proper course, same for the ladies.

I totally agree with that.

I think one of the reasons we lose lots of people about this sort of age is ironically the quality of the support for the most talented - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

The rich get excellent training and coaching opportunities and support and improve as a result while the poor discover beer and stuff and get further and further away from the good guys until there is no chance of them beating the top guys so there is no point in travelling half the length of the country to some poxy competition they are never going to win and are lucky if they are even competitive in so they may as well just go to the pub....

[J.Tullster]

Rob, I think you are missing Doug's point... He's saying the support etc available is excellent but basicaly the level of domestic competition doesn't degin to compare with JWOC standard (which it doesn't)

Rosco, don't really agree with you there, I don't think there is many juniors in Britain who drop out because they want to compete at elite level but don't receive the support. The support is there. If people are dropping out then it's mostly for other reasons i reckon (i.e. go to uni and take up different interests, discover beer, can't be bothered etc. This happens in pretty much every sport too)

[Rookie]

Next year's M/W18L prizes are going to be awarded to the top 18s on M/W20E at the JK according to the Elite Comp Group minutes, and that is being used as a trial for fully combining them in future FCCs, which I think is a good idea, why separate the top 18s from the 20s all the time, reducing levels of competition.

As a top year 20 I've been running 21L at regional events (JM5L is a waste of time since it's usually about 7km when it's meant to be an M20 classic) and would be very happy for Fatboy's idea of combining 20/21/35 and I have suggested it before and would make a lot of sense at regional champs where the 20 "trophy" goes to JM5L most of the time when the 20s deserving the trophy either don't want to run it or don't run it.

For most races we just need 5 courses (possibly seperate M/W as well) very young 10-12, young junior 14-16, open 18-35, vet 40-x, supervet >x, but 18s on a full length M/W21E classic might be a bit tough

I'm not a JWOC/WOC level athlete but would love better levels of domestic competition, keep age class "prizes" but run more classes on the same courses.

I was pretty impressed by the results from Australia, congrats people and those maps looked crazy, but I know that they weren't quite what some of you were after, and it probably is down to lack of domestic competition as Doug suggests - sorry I'm not at your level pushing you!

[Ed]

personally I reckon any British junior looking for top results at JWOC needs to be not just running 21 by the time they're a 20, but actually seriously competing (trying to get good placings rather than just aiming to finish a 21E classic). If you're running up it's easy to think there's no pressure since a bad result maybe doesn't matter so much.

Ideally the class structure at events should support this (combined 20 and 21, if not also 18s thrown in), but if not then you have to decide whether pot-hunting and competing against your mates on the junior classes is important or whether trying to test yourself against the best is important.

As a 20 I ran 21 at pretty much everything: I think JK, BOC and JWOC selection/FCC final long races were the only 20 courses that weren't combined with the 21s I ran domestically that year. All other UK Cup races etc. I ran 21. Then again, I ran my first 21L badge event as a second year 16 and first 21E national as a first year 18...

Yes it maybe devalues the junior courses, and you'll probably not pick up as many wins (unless you're really good!), but it does get you used to longer, harder courses and having to have a really good run to get a good result, which is what you need at international level.

[harry]

I was given one phone call of support, and a couple of emails (from becks among others, thanks) but nothing from those who dropped me, even telling me i was dropped.

This is bad, communication about selections has always been bad. But then, they can't call everyone.

Be honest though is the lack of support the reason why people don't choose to train? You can't have someone phoning you up everyday telling you to go training. It has to come from yourself. People who have been in the start programme have had a lot of information about the training they ought to do, but you have to actually do it! The pool is bigger now because we never had "start", the very best ones got into the junior squad at 16-17, others at 18-19.

People need to be more honest with themselves and not always lay the blame with others. Maybe the system isn't perfect but the opportunities are there, more so now than ever. Even in your local area you will find people who want to help you, good running clubs and keen orienteers. It takes time and effort.

A good start for anyone who wants to improve is to find a suitable coach and formulate some goals and a plan towards acheiving them. If that includes top results at JWOC then like Ed says you should race seriously at M/W21E or include some junior elite races in Scandinavia/Switzerland. If you want to be the best then look at what the best people are doing and work towards that.

[harry]

Also I don't think we should necessarily strive to have juniors winning medals at JWOC. Long term if you've got several juniors getting top 20-40 results and decent relay results at JWOC that bodes well for future WOC teams. If they win medals then fantastic! But noone should push them (too far beyond their limits) to achieve at junior level.

If you look at our best WOC performers of the last few years, Jamie, Jon, Heather, Dan, GG, Helen B., none achieved much better than top 15 at JWOC - I haven't checked this but from memory I think Heather's best was about 13th and Jamie Jon and Siggi Gould got 4th in the relay in 1995. These are great results but what I mean is they don't have to be the very best at junior to become top seniors.

[awk]

Interesting to see how some things come full circle. Some thoughts in response to previous posts.

Rookie: JM5L is NOT meant to be M20 Classic distance! The idea behind the JM/JW system has always been that the top M/W20s should be running M/W21L at regional events. I suspect the same should apply to 35s! JM/JW5L is meant to be approx M/W18L distance, and is open to all juniors, including those M/W20s not wanting run the full distance, but still wanting (a) decent competition and (b) a good quality TD5 course. (A) is certainly rarely available on M/W20S in even the biggest races!

One of the main aims of the FCC was to provide more competition where the best 18s and 20s could race together (this was seen as a big issue back in 1994 too). The final manages that; it would be great if more of the earlier races could do so as well.

The FCC was always meant to be a stepping stone to international competition for those aspiring to that, but inevitably for some it will be an achievement and target in its own right, and I don't see anything wrong in that.

On the performance issue - I personally don't think there is a major problem with the talent available. In fact, I think it's brilliant given the small pool that we operate from. The problem is that (a) we need a much bigger pool to start with and (b) partly as a result of the small initial pool, once you get to M/W20, most of the second tier have dropped out. The focus really needs to be (as we all know) on building that pool up, and retaining more into later juniors, early seniors.

Without (I hope) being complacent, how important are brilliant results at JWOC? I know some of the best succeed early, but it seems that a high number of those who succeed at JWOC also burn out early, whilst a high proportion of those who succeed later, haven't had major early success. From what I've seen this applies in other sports too, whilst in orienteering somebody who knows more about these things than me said this applies to the Czechs too.

So, whilst I do agree with all the development points made, how significant or otherwise are JWOC results in terms other than measuring development?

[Rookie]

awk, I know that the original plan was for M/W20 who want a proper length to run up, but organisers don't seem to realise that which is why regional champs (at classic distance) trophies for M/W20 always seem to go on JM/W5L.
Us juniors realise we are meant to be doing 21, the only JM5L I've run in my time as an M20 (I think) were any FCC races and 2006 Northern Champs