Missing Control

[SJC]

By taking out legs 3-4-5 they would have won the British, as it was they were 17 secs behind OD.

Sorry, but relays just don't work like that. Had the SBOC last leg runner started 17 seconds earlier he would still probably have been caught by the OD runner and finished second. Last legs are a head to head race, not a time trial.

[awk]

... but who benefits by voiding the course - no-one !
Comepetitors have paid good money for travel / accommodation / entry; Organisers, Planners, Controllers and a host of helpers have given freely of their time - for what ? Absolutely nothing; it's as if the event never was.

I profoundly disagree, both as a competitor and as a volunteer official.

As a competitor, the fact that the course is voided recognises that the race was made significantly unfair, for whatever reason. It's not just about the winner, it's about the rest of the field too, and I would much rather have a course voided than a completely unreliable result stand. I've still had the fun of the orienteering itself, and have a time which I can privately compare if I want.

Time after time we talk about being harsh on volunteer officials. Well many of us are, and frankly I'd rather be honest about it, and recognise that something went wrong and the competition was too compromised to record the results, than pretend that the competition was valid, just because of my apparently fragile feelings.

Problem is that we nowadays pussy foot around the issue so much, that it makes it so much worse when a course is actually voided. If courses were voided more often and more objectively, and the learning passed on, it might actually help us volunteer officials develop skills and confidence.

[Vidalos]

By taking out legs 3-4-5 they would have won the British, as it was they were 17 secs behind OD.

Sorry, but relays just don't work like that. Had the SBOC last leg runner started 17 seconds earlier he would still probably have been caught by the OD runner and finished second. Last legs are a head to head race, not a time trial.

But isn't that the point of the whole discussion people were affected but in different ways and to different degrees. The whole race is changed beyond that point, therefore the only option is to void, not guess who might have been affected and to what extent

[freaky_phil]

SJC:

Had the SBOC last leg runner started 17 seconds earlier he would still probably have been caught by the OD runner and finished second.

Uh? Why do you say that? Our last leg runner started 9 secs ahead of the second placed runner at the JK Relay and came back in first place. 17 seconds is one slip at a control, if he was 17mins behind then maybe he wouldn't have caught him, but come on 17 secs! But it's all academic now, the results will stand.
Oh and seeing as the legs on the W21E/M21L were removed on the previous day a bit of consistency by the Jury wouldn't have gone amiss (even if it wasn't the same jury for both days). It was the British Championships weekend.

[johnloguk]

a bit of consistency by the Jury wouldn't have gone amiss

That would be consistency like we always have on Nopesport then

The beauty and frustration of being human is that we all have opinions and viewpoints that we think are valid. These arguments will never be resolved because all sides are so convinced that they are right. All we can ask is that there is a good de-brief after every event so that lessons can be learned and mistakes minimised. Perfection ain't gonna happen, but we can always try that bit harder.

[SeanC]

I'm reading this debate and watching the rain outside and something is making me grin.

It's the Duckworth-Lewis method of calculating a winner in cricket when rain stops play. In comparison to voiding a leg, the Duckworth-Lewis method really makes winning a lottery.

Is the problem here that competitors dont know what will happen if a control is missing or misplaced so gives us a chance to disagree? Just like rain, it's always going to happen. Imagine if you left calculating the winner of a washed out cricket match to a jury

[freaky_phil]

I totally agree with Johnloguk, this issue needs to be raised up by the Event Standards or who ever they are know. The controller and planner should be asked to explain what went wrong and the Jury their reasons behind their decision for considering a) void the course or b) remove the legs or c) leave the results as they are. I'd be really surprised if the Jury had all the information, splits, accumulated times etc for the top 10 places to see what effect b) would have had on the final placings as I've stated it really did matter to who won the mini relay.
With the way sport is declining in participation etc some serious questions need to asked and maybe better/clearer rules introduced, all this "shall v should" is so open to anyones interpretation. If this is not done, and we all know how fickle children are, they'll just turn tail and say that this sport is a joke and the decison makers have lost all grasp of what really matters. Let's go play football!

[Adventure Racer]

Frankly I think they should either void the course or remove the legs.

Quick reality check here. This was a mini-relay. Do you really think your SBOC lads would appreciate the course being voided and so having to hand back their second place awards? I'm sure it's not fair on the OD team who did have a good run (it really is debatable whether it wasn't better than yours) to have to hand back theirs. Voiding the course really is the only possible option in a relay due to the head-to-head nature as others have explained - there is no way that a jury could have ruled you to have won and so enable you to do the double.

Presumably OD were at the missing control at the same time as SBOC and won the race by simply heading off sooner? So it comes down to decision making out on the course not luck - OK so it's not a decision they should be asked to make, but make it they did. I'll point out that I've not won at least one race I should have done due to a similar wrong decision that I shouldn't have had to make, but I'd certainly have never called for the whole event to be voided because of that.

[Guest88]

freakyphil> On the subject of the children being fickle...my suggestion for today is that you put yours and theirs energy on focussing and training for the next big race rather than dwelling overly on the unfairness here. Life is full of minor setbacks, and judging by the number of 'fairness' issues that we have seen protacted debates about on here, orienteering contains more than most... but the real winners are those that use the minor setbacks as a springboard rather than getting distracted by them.

e.g. Jamie Stevenson still won British Champs at Woolbeding despite the issue with the road through the out of bounds gate issue.

Obviously you can't start taking leg times out of a relay, by the way, and in the debate here previously I think that most people were persuaded that even on individual races this opens up major loopholes. I guess you can void it if you want. I'm not personally convinced that the net level of happiness in the world would be increased by such a measure but that is debatable I guess....

[freaky_phil]

Guest 88:

my suggestion for today is that you put yours and theirs energy on focussing and training for the next big race

Yes you are quite right and that's where I think the source of my frustration lies as I have been a coach for the Welsh Junior squad for many years now, and have coached all the lads in the team many times, amongst many others. We'll dust ourselves down and get training for the JIRC's at the end of June.

[freaky_phil]

Guest 88:

my suggestion for today is that you put yours and theirs energy on focussing and training for the next big race

Yes you are quite right and that's where I think the source of my frustration lies as I have been a coach for the Welsh Junior squad for many years now, and have coached all the lads in the team many times, amongst many others. We'll dust ourselves down and get training for the JIRC's at the end of June.

[Red Adder]

My understanding of the rules at present leads me to beleive that the W21E jury really only had two choices - void course or let it stand unaltered but chose to go the third way (Tony B would love them) by voiding the effected legs. If this is the case then the jury was wrong but I think have set a good precedent. I think the rules group may need to review the rules with regard to voiding courses.

With relays the head to head nature / leg gaffling means that that a missing / significant mis-placing control will have a make it impact on outcomes very hard to predict and removing legs is not really a faitr option and sadly courses should be probably be voided.

Individual events are essentially time trials. I know there is an argument that voiding individual legs has an unequal and therefore unfair impact across the field. However as the race window is generally long and so changing weather, presence of other competitors, car park gossip, elephant tracks etc mean that they can never be totally fair to all competitors. Therefore I think it perfectly reasonable to use the benefits of SI/Emit technology to void effected legs and so be able to declare a result.

[Gross]

My understanding of the rules at present leads me to beleive that the W21E jury really only had two choices - void course or let it stand unaltered but chose to go the third way (Tony B would love them) by voiding the effected legs. If this is the case then the jury was wrong but I think have set a good precedent. I think the rules group may need to review the rules with regard to voiding courses. s

Bollocks... an elite championship race is either won as it is planned or it is voided... no question... for National Championships the sport is so much degraded if you start taking chunks out of each race... Athens Olympics... Paula R winning... the hits the wall... ok... bad form ... lets delete the last few miles & give her a medal...

Bollocks

[awk]

I have to say that I agree with Gross, although not in quite the same terms (!). It's a championship race; the course stands or falls in its entirety; there are too many variables affected by the invalid control that can't be mitigated for by simply excluding it.

What I do find disappointing is that time after time the Elite classes seem to be the worst affected by invalid controls. I know it's important for all classes to get a quality course, but for the prestige courses to be so often subject to problems seems particularly unfortunate. Little wonder there is some demand for a separate race.

[HOCOLITE]

Awk is this because the elite competitors are more likely to protest, because a) they are more certain that things are wrong b) they are more prepared to risk the void because more is at stake and probably fewr people are affected.