Quis Custodiet ipsos custodes

[MacMan]

Quis Custodiet ipsos custodes

I came away from the British, disappointed not just in my own performances due to a lack of strength as I continue to battle back from two years of injury, but also my expectations had grown significantly looking at the glimpses of terrain from the BOC2007 web photo page and the map extract. My appetite for the race wetted, as I dreamt of running across intricate contour detail at speed (albeit relative).

I remember being surprised reading the final details that the controller was looking after both days, having looked after last years BOC long race I know the strain both physically and mentally is tough, so multiplying by two is concerning.

So as we look back, what will we learn, IMHO we possibly had a map that wasn’t at the standard for one (if not the) premier home race of the season, over mapped for a 1:15000; uncorrected for magnetic north, uncorrected pg data; unintelligible in places in part due to printing quality and in part due to over mapping; possibly unfair in not discerning difficult undergrowth in places (see ISOM symbol 407); and possibly more you will read on other links.

The planning is more subjective one man’s meat is another man’s poison, but controls misplaced and moving during the event; control circles drawn at 5mm rather than 6mm, with small control numbers placed directly on a valid approach into a control; missing controls on junior relays (reported) again all of which and more are reported elsewhere …. But my point (eventually) is what will be done ? Who is to see what was bad, but to be fair what was good ? (and there was good it’s just easier for my discussion to focus on the bad!!). Following my controlling experience last year I had no feedback! Other than from some of my piers … but was a report done by BO onto their perception of what was done well or bad on their behalf, is there a secret report on the mappers, planners controllers ? I am sure I got some things wrong last year, maybe a considered, balanced report back to me and all the team putting on last years event, would help not just ourselves, but also future years.

Who is reporting and giving feedback to our officials, because if they are I for one am not seeing it, so I wonder if any of my other controllers/mappers and planers are?

I think this maybe within the remit of the major events panel, and they may already be performing such analysis, if they are then great, lets see it, and for at least major officials and controllers lets be sent it and not have to hunt for it on the web.

[roadrunner]

Generalising this a bit, wouldn't it be good to have some constructive feedback to officials at all events, not just the major ones? We all make mistakes, and it's only by knowing what we got wrong that we can improve. In my running club, the race committee always has a "wash up" session after each race, at which they can review what went well and what didn't, not to blame anyone but rather to do better next time. How many orienteering clubs do likewise? There's also a system in road running where independent scrutineers visit a selection of events, and report back to the organiser on the good and bad points. I believe a random selection of finishers are asked for feedback as a part of this (i.e. not just the ones who complain). Maybe this too is something that could be done at the major orienteering events at least.

[Tessa]

and we wonder why we cant find anyone to volunteer to official events...

yes there are problems but all that writing on nopesport does is encourage others to remember bad bits and whinge too. all events everywhere have problems. if there is a need for serious constructive criticism and someone feels that strongly about things then why not write to the organiser/appropriate person.

i say this being one of those affected by the general 'problems' with the W21E course. I found it frustrating when i finished. i put in a protest or what ever form it was (stating that id rather withdraw a protest than void a course as a results change was more for personal satisfaction than anything of any importance).

i assume whoever made a mistake is probably equally frustrated so lets not continually complain. dont fool yourself into posting thinking its constructive criticism when its really getting things off your own chest and encouraging others to whinge too.

[FatBoy]

Which do you think is better - directing a complaint (albeit with caveat) to the organiser which will result in nothing but the organising team feeling (even more) upset, or posting on here in a polite way which future orgnanisers/planners/controllers/rule makers can see to help direct them as to public opinion?

Personally I would have to be seriously upset beyond a level I don't currently know to ever consider putting any sort of complaint direct to the organiser. You can't change what's happened, but you can care enough about the sport to try and ensure lessons are learned.

We now seem to have two topics on the same topic! See end of British thread.

And for those of us too young to have been forced to study latin - what does "Quis Custodiet ipsos custodes" mean? Thought it was a spam thread to start with...

[mike g]

Race committees will also get feedback from runners who post comments and rate races on the Runners World website. For some reason, they seem to provide more balanced feedback than Nopesport contributors do.

That is not to disagree with people who have posted about the British. Although I enjoyed the weekend, for a major championship too many technical aspects were sub-standard, and people who were affected have every right to feel annoyed about it.

However, I did think it was ridiculous after the JK, which was a fantastic event, how many people found the most trivial and nitpicking things to complain about on here.

[Mr Chips]

And for those of us too young to have been forced to study latin - what does "Quis Custodiet ipsos custodes" mean? Thought it was a spam thread to start with...

"Who guards the guards?"

O tempora, o mores!

[mike g]

["Who guards the guards?"]

Or perhaps, in the context, "Who controls the controllers?"

[awk]

If there is a need for serious constructive criticism and someone feels that strongly about things then why not write to the organiser/appropriate person.....Dont fool yourself into posting thinking its constructive criticism when its really getting things off your own chest and encouraging others to whinge too.

Feedbacking to an organiser/planner moves the sport forward not one jot. If you're lucky, that particular official will take on board what's fed back, if not they won't. However, the sorts of things often discussed here (some ad nauseam) are issues that are important to learn from across the board: everybody needs to learn, not just one individual who might get around to doing the same job in a couple of years time or longer.

I agree nopesport is probably not the best venue to discuss some of these issues, but it's currently the only venue. Until BOF provide a better route for feedback, then it's forums like this that enable views to be aired.

Certainly, as a prospective official, I've learned loads by going back through some of the discussions here, particularly from the top end of the sport. I hope at least some of it will get applied! If not, I'll soon read about it!

[MacMan]

I have to agree with Awk, until I start to see the reports from BO in line with Appendix C (2.3.2) I will continue to monitor postings for things that go right and wrong in our sport so we learn to watch for things that are important to us as competitors.

Last year I wrote to mapping cmmtt detailing problems that I experienced due to mapping of roads in settlements that caused some confusion over route choices on our elite courses through OOB ...something I missed/didn't watch out for as controller ... I would have hoped that it could be encapsulated into a report for all controllers as a minimum and sent out for consideration. I hopefully will not make the same mistake again .. but hopefully others can learn from my mistake.

[Lizi Beee]

I agree with AWK to a point... I do think there really should be a WHINGE forum though. Cos people so need to vent sometimes and to put it in discussion is just a JOKE most of the time. Fairplay feedback constructively but don't just bash away at the efforts people have put in.

[Tessa]

fair enough if people think this is a better way then i stand corrected.

i personally thought that if i was going to make a complaint about an issue direct in a letter form then it would be alot milder than what is posted. it would include many of the positives of the event and then the whole thing might be more constructive. again its personal, but if i was an official i might have preferred that to everyone being very public about the mistakes i might have made. but maybe its advantages are that others may learn. maybe its just me, but having organised/planned events in the past, some that have not all gone to plan, i would be pretty distraught by comments made on here even if i had made some bad mistakes.

but it must be just me then. go on keep constructively criticising...

[candyman]

Perhaps the mistake that is made is that most criticism (particularly on this forum) is directed towards individuals involved with events and/or particular events. It would be much more constructive to look at processes and guidelines and work out how we can improve those or improve how well they are implemented.

I think that would be a lot more helpful than just saying somebody did a rubbish job and would have the added bonus of helping to improve the quality of our future major events.

[graeme]

In response to the original question, at least in Scotland: me.

But I do feed forward - not feedback.

Officials don't need telling what went wrong with their event. They know perfectly well what went wrong, and what nearly went wrong. And it is almost always due to lack of time. Very, very rarely planners and controllers have wrongheaded ideas, and in those cases feedback in usually pointless.

Occasionally the organisers deliberately break the rules - as they did in awarding Jenny Johnson the W21E championship when a misplaced control meant the course should be voided. When that happens the rules committee need to take a good look at the decision, and if they think it was right (as I do), amend the rules accordingly.

What is needed is to pass on the problems, and the near-problems, to next year's organisers (Jon Musgrave, but hassle me if you prefer) or to the rulemakers. And for those people to look at "problems short of a protest" to see how to improve things.

Finally, the idea that because there are no formal protests, it can't be improved is ludicrous.



from Plato (oh alright, wikipedia)
...they will guard themselves against themselves. We must tell the guardians a noble lie. The noble lie will inform them that they are better than those they serve and it is, therefore, their responsibility to guard and protect those lesser than themselves.