British

[Lizi Beee]

3. Now the controversial one, I noticed Sarum were 3rd on the M14 but had a girl in their team? Is this allowed? as there was a W14 course so it wasn't as if it was a M/W 14 course. So on the same vain couldn't the Womens Premier have 2 men and 1 women in a team? If a club can't get enough members to satisy a course requirement then there's always the Adhoc and Junior adhoc, that's why we have the Adhoc courses. I know I may seem mean here but if you've got a very good W14 then she may well beat M14's on her course leg and that will then effect the overall results.

Women can run men's and still be competitive because it is the equivalent of running "up" a class. Men can't run the women's classes competitively 'cause that is running down a class.

[freaky_phil]

You are quite right Lizi Beee, rule 2.4.3 states that "Women may compete in Men's classes but Men may not compete in Women's classes". I stand corrected, my aplogies to Lucy Butt - well done for beating all those boys.

[NeilC]

Another case of a map done to a price rather than to do a job? I suppose that's always going to be the risk of professional mapping, especially when tendering is involved (I don't know whether that was the case at Pwll Du).

What would people prefer at major events - paying extra (say £20 per run) to allow the mappers more time in the area to bring a map up to top quality, or getting a reasonable product for a fiver less? Put another way which scenario would result is less moaning?

This is a real issue which faces major event organisers (and their treasurers).

[RJ]

Another case of a map done to a price rather than to do a job? I suppose that's always going to be the risk of professional mapping, especially when tendering is involved (I don't know whether that was the case at Pwll Du).

What would people prefer at major events - paying extra (say £20 per run) to allow the mappers more time in the area to bring a map up to top quality, or getting a reasonable product for a fiver less? Put another way which scenario would result is less moaning?

It isn't as simple as that. Two other people, the Planner and the Controller, made visits to the area of 163. Perhaps they agreed with the Mapper that the sharp re-entrant(s!!!) on the "exaggerating" index contour were there.... and that the competitors are wrong! The actual index contour close to the control feature wiggles about like mad! There must be some fine detail under the heather(!!??).

The map may be suspect in places because the survey was limited.... but the planner and the controller have more time to decide whether to use the feature or not. If suspect, don't put a control on it.

[HOCOLITE]

RJ can you claim perfection. I certainly couldn't, even professionals are not perfect and mapping is subjective, everyone interprets things differently. I had a similar control where I thought it was not a re-entrant but I do know it was the same for everyone on my course.

[JayBee]

Does any one know if there will be route gadget on or going up because i can find it.

[graeme]

If suspect, don't put a control on it.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!

Maps are fully of "suspect" features, as any subjective thing must be. In practice, repetition of this canard leads to planners/controllers who need a feature in a particular place to decide the feature must be OK, and hang the flag accordingly.

In fact, its better to put a control on a suspect feature, than to have the suspect feature as an attack point or on approach; provided

a) Its in the centre of the circle

b) Competitors wont lose time looking for it - i.e. it has to be visible and by implication its point is to start or end a good leg, rather than test fine navigation.

I heard that on M21E two controls were "wrong" in the sense of being on the wrong crag. I only visited one (#4), but since the flag was clearly visible from either (and at the end and beginning of good legs) it wasn't a problem - indeed it was only after I finished that someone pointed it out to me.

This area is very, very difficult to map well. I reckon only 2-3 people in Britain could produce a good, legible 1:15 map (I do think its possible, but
not by starting with a 1:10 and "updating"). The issue is whether we're willing to pay elite rates for elite mapping. Given the complaints about entry prices, I suspect not.

The same for everyone

An even worse argument! If a control is randomly hidden it takes a random amount of time to find which certainly isn't the same for everyone.

[summo]

I would like to apologise for using the car park next to the event, to drop off my 8months pregnant partner off (not competing)and not going direct to the car park. I got a proper mouthful off a woman before I could even get a word in edgeways!! Whilst I think organisers / helpers etc are entitled to convenient parking, perhaps the same could be said for those less able walk or needing extra care. Helping to make orienteering open to all.

Toiletting - A urinal style toilet, like at the Lakes 5 days would have eliminated any queuing. Or a toilet at the fair car park for those who had just driven a far distance and could not wait any longer!?

I was pleased / impressed to go to an event where the finish was not at some remore location or out of sight. Excellent to have a visible finish.

1:15000 mapping, as mentioned was poor, in terms of contour detail and runnability, which would not have mattered had routes not crossed areas of unmapped mixed runnability. Making route choice at times more down to luck than judgement, such finding a sheep track.

I thought there was a major lack in promoting the event. As I drove down south on the friday, the radio (4 I think) mentioned how the british hang gliding championship was based in Crickhowell that day. An oppurtunity missed. If any event should merit PR it was this one. Even some big banner saying 'British Champs...' on the roadside. You don't have to put a year on it, that way you can re-use them every year. BBC Local radio might have been interested, South Wales Echo too..

[Laura]

I agree with becky the W21E course did not make the most of the area. My dad (M50L) ran a 1km shorter course than me and it looked to be a far more interesting and challenging course round the best bits of the area, whereas we spent half our course on the blorenge.

I also had trouble reading the map in the circle which has never bothered me before so maybe it was because the map was drawn at 1:10000 then shrunk down. I found the 1:10000 map on sunday easier to read, would it have been possible to use a 1:10000 on the individual day or is it a BOF rule that it has to be 1:15000 for elite?

as for voiding two legs on saturday, is this the right thing to do? seemed crazy to me surely the whole race should have been voided?

[RJ]

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!

You have a case Graeme where suspect sites can be used for the end or beginning of a good leg. But there are suspect features and there are suspect features. As a planner you must make a judgement.

In this case (163), I along with others feel that the feature just did not exist! Whether or not it is marked on the map.... it just didn't exist, certainly not in the size indicated on the map. It was being used in a relay, at the end of a 300m leg. Hardly meeting your criteria for use! There were plenty of other features in the area.

OK so the feature didn't exist.... hang the kite high! Not in this case... lost amongst the heather!

Relays are fast, short, navigational challenges. 163 added head scratching. No.... it shouldn't have been used. The planner and controller have that choice where suspect features are concerned. I can't believe they are happy with it, in hindsight.

[SeanC]

I always feel a bit sorry for organisers and planners when this sort of discussion breaks out on nopesport.

Has anyone submitted a complaint to the controller? Isn't this the normal route for complaints? A response from the controller might give some useful feedback for the discussion.

Personally speaking I tend to shrug my shoulders if a volunteer has made a mistake. I feel I can have no complaints if someone is working for my benefit for free unless I am put in physical danger. But then again I'm happy sticking to local events and might be less forgiving if I spent many hours a week training for an event that had some flaws.

[johnloguk]

Sadly I couldn't get to BOC, but I hope that doesn't negate this post. I thoroughly enjoyed the area when it was used for the Welsh 6-Days, especially the butterfly loops, and thought it was both fast and technical. I've been a bit surprised by responses to it.

Posts seemed to start off very positive but have taken a big turn for the "negative nopes" since, does this really reflect everyone's experiences? Without an official response it's hard to say, especially from a distance, but isn't every big event going to have some problems, can we really expect perfection, even for BOC?

No map is perfect, especially areas like this, it will always be an individual's interpretation. One person's excellent course will always be another's poor course, for all sorts of reasons. Yes kites should be in the right place, yes they should be placed high if the map is a bit "dodgy" or visibility reduced, never "hidden". Always many lessons to be learned from a full and frank de-brief, and I'm sure this is going on now.

The map can never fully reflect the intricacies of runnability, and every moorland I've ever run on, and most forests, has had some lottery element as to whether or not you picked up an unmarked animal track or found slightly lower vegetation. These things tend to even out. Most courses have some compromise legs somewhere. You might be able to plan a "perfect course", but can anyone plan up to 20 of them on the same area?

Missed opportunities for publicity? Was there a dedicated publicity officer for the event, should there always be for every event (personally I think yes if at all possible)? Or did the media simply ignore everything that was sent to them?

1:15000 maps of technical areas, maybe their days should be numbered for very complex areas, I always struggle with them these days. That is for Rules Groups to discuss and sort out, but I'm glad I'm old enough now to be on at least 1:10000 most of the time

[Lizi Beee]

Have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the weekend. Glorious sunshine, lovely technical area, physically tough bringin in more navigational skills than running speeds - always my fave

Maps are never going to be perfect, as has been said before they are subjective and i highly doubt there will be a time when everyone agrees completely with a person's interpretation.

I think I know which control people are moaning about, I remember a vague reentrant and yes the kite should have been hung higher really having decided to use that feature.

It is a bit disappointing about the control waking up issue as well, but as I say I think on the whole the weekend was a winner Loved having such visability for the relays and using the same assembly just seemed to bring the weekend together a bit more. Well done organisers and everyone who helped

[Laura]

my post wasn't supposed to appear negative but it is a discussion forum so its not always going to be positive. The event as a whole worked well and the best person won in our class but there's things than can be looked at to improve it for next time. constructive criticism.

..and the big events aren't always going to be perfect, but surely we should be striving for this in the british championships.

[Mrs H]

Agree with you Lizi - can't say my runs were perfect - but that was my fault not anyone elses - I know for a fact that the organising teams were under tremendous pressure for this event and it could very nearly not have happened at all - the fact that it did was testemony to some incredibly hard work by relatively few people. No event pleases everyone and most of us could pick fault with every event if we chose to.

I actually think some people round here should be bloody grateful they are fit nough and in a position to attend events like these, amongst their friends and families, in interesting (if not beautiful) surroundings and that there are people out there prepared to give up there spare time to make it happen.

I'll get back to writing my final details now I've got that off my chest