
Rankings
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So you'd suggest that being top of the rankings would be more meaningful than winning the FCC (or UK Cup
)?

- Adventure Racer
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There are a number of reasons why the rankings scheme are not used on junior classes - and none of them were due to trying to reduce the level of competition.
First of all it takes six events to get a full ranking score: this can take some time even when you run the same class regularly, but when there are two different class structures at regional and national events, when so many better juniors run 'out of class' even at national events, and when a junior is only in a class for two years, then to get any meaningful scores will take way too long.
Even when the scores come together, juniors are developing so rapidly, that the ranking system is playing catch up all the time, and never keeping up. It's bad enough when you are a senior.....!
The ranking scheme needs a fudge factor for small classes. Many junior classes at regional and even national events hardly ever hit that boundary, indeed are way below the threshold, making the ranking scheme unreliable.
For the top juniors, they will be working towards periodisation: no junior (or senior?) should be trying to race at their best all the year round, but the ranking scheme emphasises exactly the opposite.
The very name "ranking scheme" implies official recognition of a particular ranked order - it's only a short step towards demands for them to be used for tour selections etc., as was found.
So, for that and other reasons, the rankings scheme is not used, thank god. Instead, the emphasis in the junior classes is on head to head racing: FCC etc. That's what matters, not some meaningless statistical trivia.
Meaningless? Well, for the first time in years, as a result of this thread, I went to have a look at the rankings list. Accurate? Cobblers: I'm ranked equal with Quentin Harding and in front of club mate Steve Webb, both approximately 40% or so faster than me. I know they've not done enough M45L races yet, but that in itself shows up one of the huge weaknesses in the system - it's permanently out of date. If the system can't deal with something as basic as that, then frankly, it's a waste of time as a ranking scheme. Of course, as a fun league, it's a different matter, but it's certainly not something to be taken seriously.
First of all it takes six events to get a full ranking score: this can take some time even when you run the same class regularly, but when there are two different class structures at regional and national events, when so many better juniors run 'out of class' even at national events, and when a junior is only in a class for two years, then to get any meaningful scores will take way too long.
Even when the scores come together, juniors are developing so rapidly, that the ranking system is playing catch up all the time, and never keeping up. It's bad enough when you are a senior.....!
The ranking scheme needs a fudge factor for small classes. Many junior classes at regional and even national events hardly ever hit that boundary, indeed are way below the threshold, making the ranking scheme unreliable.
For the top juniors, they will be working towards periodisation: no junior (or senior?) should be trying to race at their best all the year round, but the ranking scheme emphasises exactly the opposite.
The very name "ranking scheme" implies official recognition of a particular ranked order - it's only a short step towards demands for them to be used for tour selections etc., as was found.
So, for that and other reasons, the rankings scheme is not used, thank god. Instead, the emphasis in the junior classes is on head to head racing: FCC etc. That's what matters, not some meaningless statistical trivia.
Meaningless? Well, for the first time in years, as a result of this thread, I went to have a look at the rankings list. Accurate? Cobblers: I'm ranked equal with Quentin Harding and in front of club mate Steve Webb, both approximately 40% or so faster than me. I know they've not done enough M45L races yet, but that in itself shows up one of the huge weaknesses in the system - it's permanently out of date. If the system can't deal with something as basic as that, then frankly, it's a waste of time as a ranking scheme. Of course, as a fun league, it's a different matter, but it's certainly not something to be taken seriously.
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awk - god
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awk wrote:when so many better juniors run 'out of class' even at national events
When I was a junior many of us used to run up to M19A because that's where the rankings started, so we could have unofficial M15 and M17 rankings. Kids will be competitive...
I would agree that the current system does need some tweaks, but probably in line with reorganisation of the calendar.
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FatBoy - addict
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DM wrote:The problem is how to get clubs to actually submit the results, a process which is said to be easy.
Time to name and shame;
POTOC/DEE Weston Heath Bury Walls, 25th March
British Orienteering, JK, 7th -8th April.
Well if you've been waiting 7 weeks for the POTOC/DEE results to be submitted to the rankings list there is good news - they're now submitted!

The bad news is that you've all scored zero, because they haven't got the file format right.

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Spookster - god
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SJC wrote:Sending results off to the Rankings is one of those things that is easy to miss, falling between the organiser and whoever does the results. A reminder that it still needs doing will probably fix the problem.
I politely e-mailed Paul Chamberlain the event coordinator for the British Champs early this week with a rankings reminder and have not even had an acknowledgement.
So the events with the biggest spreads of competitors i.e. the competitions that make the ranking lists more meaningful - JK, British Middle, British Champs were/are all way over the two week deadline. I dunno, you just can't get the staff nowadays.
I'm gonna keep it alive, and continue to be, flying like an eagle to my destiny.
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schnitzer - white
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- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:26 am
- Location: 5224 miles East of America
If you live in Craven and have a good position in the rankings it might save you some money: Craven District Council are setting up a Free Access for National Sports People (FANS) scheme. One criterion for eligibility is to be listed in the top ten of any national over 16 age group ranking within a Sport England designated sport.
If more councils adopt similar schemes we might see a bit more interest in the rankings list.
If more councils adopt similar schemes we might see a bit more interest in the rankings list.
- swat
- orange
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Mid-Sussex have operated FANS for years - free access to swimming, squash etc and even the local gym. For juniors being British Champion or being selected for start squad, JHI or interland is OK.
Not greatly advertised so worth checking with your own local council.
Not greatly advertised so worth checking with your own local council.
- NeilC
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Is orienteering a Sport England designated sport? And is that the same as a Sport England priority sport? If so, orienteering isn't on that list. My local council says, "They must also be in an Institute of Sport priority sport." I couldn't find such a list on the EIS website. Does anyone know of an orienteer actually taking advantage of the FANS scheme?!
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runnerbean - off string
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Well having checked, it's certainly one of the designated sports on the list of the local council here which qualifies you for the scheme.
- Adventure Racer
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The council wanted to give Young Neville this - but BO scuppered it.
Malvern Hills has a Taleted and Gifted Sports Person scheme which allows them free access to swimming pool etc. There's quite a lot of hoops to jump through. One of the things you had to do was get a letter from the National Governing Body supporting the application.
I asked someone at BOF central to do this - but she never did - perhaps she didn't think he was good enough or perhaps she couldn't be arsed - anyway - I just pay for him to do his twice weekly swim now - to be honest it's less hassle but I cannot understand why BO didn't help us out on this - it was no skin of their noses was it! Have other people had to get a letter of support and have they succeeded?
I have the e-mail exchange still on my computer in case she's reading this - last September 8th.
Malvern Hills has a Taleted and Gifted Sports Person scheme which allows them free access to swimming pool etc. There's quite a lot of hoops to jump through. One of the things you had to do was get a letter from the National Governing Body supporting the application.
I asked someone at BOF central to do this - but she never did - perhaps she didn't think he was good enough or perhaps she couldn't be arsed - anyway - I just pay for him to do his twice weekly swim now - to be honest it's less hassle but I cannot understand why BO didn't help us out on this - it was no skin of their noses was it! Have other people had to get a letter of support and have they succeeded?
I have the e-mail exchange still on my computer in case she's reading this - last September 8th.
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Mrs H - god
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Does anyone know when the results from the LOC National Event @ Caw Fell will be submitted to the rankings? I politely e-mailed the LOC webmaster 10 days ago - didn't know who else to contact. No reply.
I know I probably show a little too much rankings love but I'm on the up as the output of one of my rankings reformatting programs illustrates...
1 Michael Sprot SYO 449
2 John Hartley WSX 427
3 Andrew Powell NOC 425
4 Ben Stevens(M20) AIRE 416
5 Ben Saxby OD 411
6 David Roome SROC 407
7 Duncan Innes(M45) BOK 403
8 Ed Nicholas EUOC 395
9 Richard Guillaume SYO 394
10 James Williams EPOC 383
This is the top ten of M21L reformatted to simply add up the event numbers of the best six scores. Event numbers greater than that of the last event have 100 subtracted from them and only runners with six scores are included.
1 Jamie Stevenson SYO 7760
2 Oliver Johnson SYO 7741
3 Graham Gristwood OD 7657
4 Jonathan Duncan WAROC 7656
5 Mark Nixon SOC 7622
6 Matthew Speake EBOR 7591
7 Scott Fraser INT 7566
8 Matt Crane WCH 7536
9 Duncan Coombs(M20) MAROC 7533
10 Duncan Archer CLOK 7527
This is the top ten of M21L reformatted to simply project everyone to six scores.
I haven't deployed these programs as unofficial web services and I don't know if I will so PM me if you want the whole list or any other age class. I hope to have a new program soon that creates a single ranking list for all age groups with a handicap version as well.
I know I probably show a little too much rankings love but I'm on the up as the output of one of my rankings reformatting programs illustrates...
1 Michael Sprot SYO 449
2 John Hartley WSX 427
3 Andrew Powell NOC 425
4 Ben Stevens(M20) AIRE 416
5 Ben Saxby OD 411
6 David Roome SROC 407
7 Duncan Innes(M45) BOK 403
8 Ed Nicholas EUOC 395
9 Richard Guillaume SYO 394
10 James Williams EPOC 383
This is the top ten of M21L reformatted to simply add up the event numbers of the best six scores. Event numbers greater than that of the last event have 100 subtracted from them and only runners with six scores are included.
1 Jamie Stevenson SYO 7760
2 Oliver Johnson SYO 7741
3 Graham Gristwood OD 7657
4 Jonathan Duncan WAROC 7656
5 Mark Nixon SOC 7622
6 Matthew Speake EBOR 7591
7 Scott Fraser INT 7566
8 Matt Crane WCH 7536
9 Duncan Coombs(M20) MAROC 7533
10 Duncan Archer CLOK 7527
This is the top ten of M21L reformatted to simply project everyone to six scores.
I haven't deployed these programs as unofficial web services and I don't know if I will so PM me if you want the whole list or any other age class. I hope to have a new program soon that creates a single ranking list for all age groups with a handicap version as well.
I'm gonna keep it alive, and continue to be, flying like an eagle to my destiny.
-
schnitzer - white
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:26 am
- Location: 5224 miles East of America
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