Red courses at Regional Events

[Crispy]

I was looking after EOD on Sunday at Bentley. We did have colour coded on offer, White to Light Green. We had a query from a OUOC person (maybe sgb ??) who asked if we had a Red available, to which I replied no. However, we did have an M21N available and I didn't realise until after reading this thread that it was a Red equivalent, so we could certainly have satisfied their needs. Interestingly we had no takers, but I wonder if it had been advertised as a Red whether that would have been different.

Chris

[seabird]

At all the events at which I have planned or controlled there have been no takers for M/W21N or V. At district events however there is a regular take up for Red.

If we are encouraging newcomers at these events I am not sure why we have the N & V categories with their invariably expensive entry fees.

We should be providing Purple (possibly), Red, Orange, Yellow and White with colour coded entry fees (whilst ensuring Junior entry fees on Badge courses are the same as these).

[SJC]

However, we did have an M21N available and I didn't realise until after reading this thread that it was a Red equivalent, so we could certainly have satisfied their needs. Interestingly we had no takers, but I wonder if it had been advertised as a Red whether that would have been different.

I am sure that a lot of the problems like this at Regional Events are due to the expectation that the Colour Coded courses at these events should be much cheaper to enter than the Age Class courses.

If clubs charged the same for the Colour Coded as the Regional courses then there would be no problem not only offering the Red course, but also Green, Blue and Brown as these are exactly the same as already planned age class courses.

[Steve]

If clubs charged the same for the Colour Coded as the Regional courses then there would be no problem not only offering the Red course, but also Green, Blue and Brown as these are exactly the same as already planned age class courses.

There is certainly a case for offering Green, for competitors whose "short" courses are still too long, and this may negate the need for V courses and de-restrict M21V so non-Ms and non-21s would feel comfortable entering.

But charging the same as for age group courses will not incentivise newcomers to attend.

[Adventure Racer]

The question then is why should colour coded courses be more expensive at regional events than district events? I have a feeling we may have debated this before though...

[PeteL]

Reds are Ok for specially targetted events but a waste of time otherwise

I think for the first time I must disagree with Mrs H, although I haven't had the chance to read the full compassSport article yet.

I don't know if this is mirrored down south but few C4/5s have had Red courses up here. I felt this was wrong if we were serious about trying to get more folk into the sport at all ages but especially young adults and so this year we as a club (GRAMP) decided to put Red courses on at all C4 events. It's early days but we've already had a good level of participation - about 10 entrants per event or 10-15% of total entries.

Those new adults who have done this course have all returned enthusiastic albeit that some felt it was a bit easy - a much better response than having spent too long thrashing around getting lost and frustrated. We hope (expect?) to see a significant proportion of these people back and doing TD4/5 courses in the near future.

As for extra planning, by making best use of the orange controls and with careful siting of controls for the more technical courses (by perhaps using a different attack point for the Red) it is possible to plan Red courses with few, if any, additional controls.

Not sure I have an opinion on Red at C3 events but I firmly believe that C4s should always have Red courses - it's an investment worth making to get that key missing young adult demographic into our sport.

[awk]

Gosh, talk about confusing: M21L, M21S, M21V, M21N etc etc., especially as the so-called Short class is longer than a Middle distance race! I suppose the TD5 classes are in some sort of alphabetical order, but even so.... (I do prefer the Scandinavian method of labelling M21A Long and M21 A Short, but that might be equally confusing for some).

If we are going to attract new orienteers, particularly adults, we must make the progressions far more transparent and, indeed, available. The principle of a novice route in for recruitment, as described by Graeme, is absolutely essential, and is by no means obvious even when it is available (which it often isn't). Equally, we need the courses for retention, and for a major event to not offer M/W21V when it is an inherent part of the guidelines strikes me as being wrong.

However, one question. Do we need an M21N/W21N when we've got Red/Orange - what's the difference (I can spot one for the W21s - the gender differentiation -but the M21s?)? Alternatively, do we need a Red when we've got M21N?

[distracted]

If we are going to attract new orienteers, particularly adults, we must make the progressions far more transparent and, indeed, available....

Alternatively, do we need a Red when we've got M21N?

I think the obvious question to ask is why would anyone enter M21N at a regional in advance, as a non-student, instead of turning up on the day and entering on the same course at half the price, the only difference being they are running 'red'? As for the confusion over course names - whether "novice" is the right word I don't know, but perhaps rename red/M21N "long novice" and W21N "short novice" just so newcomers know what to expect?

Continuing with the theme of transparency - what does "full range of colour coded courses" or "white to light green" mean for those with no knowledge of the sport? Most likely absolutely nothing. If we are going to get more people out orienteering then the easy first step is to remove all the unnecessary jargon that litters almost every event flyer in existence. Overuse of jargon is far far too common, even on flyers/details for those events specifically designed to attract novices (like local events/Saturday series etc) . It doesn't take much thought or effort to simplify the language and add a little explanation so that people actually understand what they are reading! If felt necessary add a line or two of jargon at the end under a heading of "information for orienteers" or similar, but information must be targeted at everybody, not just those in the know.

[Mrs H]

PeteL - I have no objection to being proved wrong on this at all! My article was directed at a rather different angle of the colour coded structure.

I think this debate is getting rather wide ranging and over-lapping. Colour coded courses; regional event courses; beginners; experienced orienteers - i'm not sure we can cover everything under one heading.

It's interesting that you say you have attracted a steady supply of red courses at C4s - 10-15% is significant. My take up of 0.3% is disappointing alhough we may get more on the day. Have you promoted the red course in any special way (running clubs etc)?

Incidentally - according to the guidelines (which I have infront of me while a wrestle with possible course splitting for SinS) The W21N class is a stand alone course - being 10% longer than the orange - seems a bit daft - but i suppose you are right it probably only reqiures one more control to pull out the distance.

[Steve]

For all practical purposes, W21N = Orange, which saves a unique course (that nobody will enter because Orange is available on the day).

[SeanC]

Another problem with the M21N label is that to a beginner it might imply its only for those aged about 21, and those over 35 have to do a (technical) B course.

Is there a general underestimation of the long term importance of competitors on Red courses. If a typical sequence of events for adult beginners is say Yellow - Red - Red - Green, then its not surprising there aren't many running red as adult beginners (unlike young junior beginners) dont do the easy courses for very long. However those doing red are keen enough to come back for a second event so these customers are perhaps worth spending a special effort on - even if there are only say 3 on the course.

I wonder what my imaginary club BLANDO would do? I suspect that BLANDO might find it more time/cost effective to initially concentrate on the family market by doing an extra local event or increasing publicity rather than adding red courses to their regional and colour coded events. Once things stabilised for them, red courses would be on the agenda. This decision might well depend on the demographics of their catchment though.

[PeteL]

Have you promoted the red course in any special way (running clubs etc)?

I think the kindest way to describe our promotion of Red courses is calling it 'viral marketing'. Less kind would be 'asking one or two vocal club members who are also involved with running clubs to spread the word'. There will always be a drip feed of people who find out about the sport in any number of ways; the advantage of having a Red available is that our 'meeter and greeters' can spot those most suited to it and encourage them to try it.

Can I ask whether C3 events are most appropriate for 'entry level' orienteers and is there a danger of trying to make a C3 too wide ranging? This sort of links with my view that there should be more quaility C4/5s at the expense of poor quality C3s. If there were more C4/5s then the 'novices' wouldn't have to be dragged to a C3, which can be a pretty confusing place if you're not familiar with the sport.

[Mrs H]

well I'm in entire agreement with that - despite my current position

(I read "viral marketing" as "virile marketing" now here's an idea )

[Fataga]

I though it went without saying that orienteers are virile !! ..

[Blanka]

If there were more C4/5s then the 'novices' wouldn't have to be dragged to a C3, which can be a pretty confusing place if you're not familiar with the sport.

Yes, but you didn't take into account sgb's original question referring to students. Unis only have one minibus on any one weekend, so they want to take both their experienced members (who are keen on an age-class course) and their novice members to the same event.