Harrop Tarn Regional..... closing dates in general

[RJ]

It seems that for Regional events you must have a closing date.... and you decide on one without giving it much thought. However, since we are printing maps to demand on the day for Harrop Tarn there seems little point in making everyone plan their lives so far in advance! So the closing date is a couple of days before the event. Entering online gets you the choice of start time, and the assurance that you won't have to wait in a queue at registration. This must be the major advantage of pre-entering, being able to plan your day!!

Also, there will be entry on the day.... without a surcharge! Why should there be a surcharge? The basic costs are no different. In fact it annoys me when I miss one of the entry dates and then have to pay extra. Why?

I think these are the reasons why the Regional events aren't proving as popular. Why can we have, basically the same thing, and call it a District event, and have no closing dates, entry on the day, and just one charging structure. Yes, of course there are more courses on offer at a Regional event, but surely that should make it more atttractive.

The entry fee has to be higher because BOF need a higher levy. But clubs ought to be able to make a surplus on a District event in exactly the same way as a Regional (or the other way round). You have pre-printed maps at both events... so where is the difference?

Regional events can use new areas and new maps (which does mean higher fees required), give age class competition (important preparation for the big events), and slotted into an event structure (competition structure). They are an important part of the overall event structure, and are a natural extension of a strong and widespread District event structure. If we made entry rather easier we could increase their popularity.

[Adventure Racer]

<applauds>

How does cost of printing maps to demand compare to cost of printing a pre-determined number in advance? Not that I'm suggesting this is a driver, given some local events round here print maps on demand for £3 a run.

[awk]

Regional events can use new areas and new maps (which does mean higher fees required),

So can district events (and don't necessarily mean higher fees at all).

give age class competition (important preparation for the big events)

I find the greater and often closer competition at district events tends to provide as good as and sometimes better preparation.

and slotted into an event structure (competition structure).

Sorry, don't follow this.

They are an important part of the overall event structure, and are a natural extension of a strong and widespread District event structure.

I would disagree with this - but then several times recently we've chosen a district event over a regional event, even when the latter has been closer, because the former has provided better competition and orienteering.

[DM]

RJ,
Agree with your viewpoints about the visible differences between regional and district events narrowing. I think the biggest cost difference must be map printing, no-one wants a stack of overprinted maps left over, probably the reason more clubs are moving to printing on demand. The advantages of pre-entry are as you say, you get to choose start time, but are you guaranteed a map if there is a large entry on the day? If the start is distant from assembly where maps are printed and you have chosen a late start can you be sure that extra maps will be provided if there is an unexpectedly large entry on day? I went to an event, 18 months ago where late EOD marked their own maps in assembly and studied them on the way to the start which wasn't exactly fair to pre-entries.

Is there anything which says the closing date for a regional event can not be on the day of the event? If not, then all clubs are able to effectively have no closing date and as WCOC have chosen to do, apply no surcharge (would a non national member otherwise be faced with a double surcharge, one for not being a national member and one for EOD? Guaranteed to put people off). Surely the way to get other clubs to change is to ask why they maintain such policies whenever you come across them, the more people who ask the question the more likely change is.

One other (probably weak) reason people go to regional events is for the ranking points. Clubs who get a reputation for not submitting results quickly or even at all will lose supporters.

We'll be at Harrop Tarn because the area sounds interesting, also at Simpson Ground this weekend which because the quality of the area is certain to attract good numbers and as AWK says, good competition.

[Adventure Racer]

The advantages of pre-entry are as you say, you get to choose start time, but are you guaranteed a map if there is a large entry on the day? If the start is distant from assembly where maps are printed and you have chosen a late start can you be sure that extra maps will be provided if there is an unexpectedly large entry on day?

Surely if doing EOD, you only allow that either up to the number of maps available or the capacity for printing more (and if the latter make sure they make it to the start on time)?

[DM]

The advantages of pre-entry are as you say, you get to choose start time, but are you guaranteed a map if there is a large entry on the day? If the start is distant from assembly where maps are printed and you have chosen a late start can you be sure that extra maps will be provided if there is an unexpectedly large entry on day?

Surely if doing EOD, you only allow that either up to the number of maps available or the capacity for printing more (and if the latter make sure they make it to the start on time)?

Yes, restricting numbers to available maps is the best way and will work in almost cases and would only fail if someone takes an extra map by mistake or the maps have been wrongly counted (it does happen).

Considering printing more maps on demand and getting them up to the start, using Harrop tarn only as an example. Start is 2 km, 130 m climb, allow 20-30 mins, one way. If mobiles don't work then someone has to run down, wait for maps to be printed and then get back up there. Might make the team on the start a bit nervous!For events where the start is close to assembly extra maps should not be a problem at short notice.

[DM]

The advantages of pre-entry are as you say, you get to choose start time, but are you guaranteed a map if there is a large entry on the day? If the start is distant from assembly where maps are printed and you have chosen a late start can you be sure that extra maps will be provided if there is an unexpectedly large entry on day?

Surely if doing EOD, you only allow that either up to the number of maps available or the capacity for printing more (and if the latter make sure they make it to the start on time)?

Yes, restricting numbers to available maps is the best way and will work in almost cases and would only fail if someone takes an extra map by mistake or the maps have been wrongly counted (it does happen).

Considering printing more maps on demand and getting them up to the start, using Harrop tarn only as an example. Start is 2 km, 130 m climb, allow 20-30 mins, one way. If mobiles don't work then someone has to run down, wait for maps to be printed and then get back up there. Might make the team on the start a bit nervous!For events where the start is close to assembly extra maps should not be a problem at short notice.

[Adventure Racer]

Considering printing more maps on demand and getting them up to the start, using Harrop tarn only as an example. Start is 2 km, 130 m climb, allow 20-30 mins, one way. If mobiles don't work then someone has to run down, wait for maps to be printed and then get back up there.

You seem to be assuming that it's only at the start where you find you need more maps. This should only be the case with the miscounted maps or somebody taking two maps scenario. Otherwise you know from people registering that you need extra maps. Even at a Regional event, there surely shouldn't even be an issue with sending a competitor up with a sealed bag with maps in?

Worth mentioning that at one of my starts on JK, the start team were taking individual maps out of the boxes and tucking them under the side ready for us to pick up. Not only is this easier for competitors as you don't have to separate maps in a rush, but it should also help avoid people taking multiple maps (or even the whole bag, as has been mentioned on here!)

[Vidalos]

RJ makes some very interesting and valid points

So why do people choose to enter Regional events? Is it because of the "better areas" or because of the competition

We now also have ability to look at who's enetring what class with on line entry systems. It appears that in some cases people are using this to decide who they want to run against rather than their designated class, usually running up 1,2 or even 3 classes to do this

Is this an advantage or dissadvantage of on-line entry systems?

[awk]

RJ makes some very interesting and valid points
So why do people choose to enter Regional events?

As has been discussed on a previous thread, that varies from area to area. Round here, they are increasingly not entering, or at least numbers are dropping and dipping below district events unless there is a specific reason.

[Mrs H]

Funnily enough I address the regional versus district debate in my next column in CompassSport - due out shortly I believe.

[HOCOLITE]

I'd be very disappointed if I travelled miles to a regional event for eod to find that there were not maps available due to generator failure, damp paper printer error, or someone taking too many.

I also believe that entry deadlines are in place to assist with start time allocation etc. It might be fine with a 200 entry but not so easy with a large entry or one particularly popular course.

I've been at home bombarded with late entries for big events and trying to sort out start times and fitting people into available slots. This is particularly significant where there is seeding.

Also there is the scenario of people not turning up because the weather is not so good. There are other major outlays to consider.....toilets, parking capacity and fees. Clubs need to have an idea of numbers to cater for these.

[Tatty]

Must agree with Hocolite. We recently had a C4 where the weather was appalling and had so few entries we didn't even cover the cost of the loos let alone Land Access and levies!!

[Vidalos]

[quote="awk
As has been discussed on a previous thread, that varies from area to area. Round here, they are increasingly not entering, or at least numbers are dropping and dipping below district events unless there is a specific reason.[/quote]

I agree with you Awk there is often not enough differentiation or value in a Regional event when compared to a District Event. Often its the same areas, with the same facilities but increased fee's for the Regional Event without any enhanced experience for the competitor. If the fixtures planning works effectively then the Regional event should have the benefit of being the only event around, but this is often not the case. Regional events now just seem to divide a similar number of competitors between a larger number of courses, is this what the competitor values from Regional Events?

[Steve]

This District event / Regional event convergence thing - I like the idea of a tiered structure of events, because at the "higher status" events I can be more sure of having a broader group of similar-standard orienteers to run against, and more sure of the quality of the terrain.

At District events it's pot luck whether many people of similar standard will be there. Of course, on-line entries allow me to see who's entered, but these are generally only applied at Regional event level, not District.

It seems things are different in different parts of the country, but admittedly if it's a Regional event then all the people I compete with may be spread over M21 to M45 classes whereas if it were a district event we would all run Brown... but I would still be taking a chance on their attendance. After all there are maybe 5x more district than regional events in the calendar.