Sensible awarding of trophies/titles

[Mrs H]

I would be surprised if either Anne or Hector begrudged their GB squad team mates podium placing .

You mean it's alright to give the title to the wrong person if the real winner doesn't mind?

[NeilC]

It would have been great fun awarding 15 odd (sorry 30 odd - forgot the B and S classes) individual age class awards at the sprint when just about everyone ran the same course.

Wrong thread but I'd also like to say what a great weekend. We may not have put down on paper what proper sprint and middle racing ought to be, but I reckon that that was it.

[Adventure Racer]

I'm pretty sure that Hector and Anne will be on the W20E and 21E podium in the future.

Do you know something about Hector's plans we don't?

[Toni]

I don't like this idea of discrediting Joe's result on Sunday. The winner of the M20E class was the fastest M20 on the day. I personally think that if two classes close together are running the same course then there should only be one class - in this case they were in different classes.
As for Mrs. H's suggestion that Hector may have run faster if he was under more pressure - Hector always gives his all when he races to get the best result he can. Knowing Hector's determination if it wasn't for FCC then he probably would have entered M21E rather than M20E anyway (as would other squaddies probably).

Good point adventure racer - I obviously meant M/W20/21E

[Mrs H]

Almost certainly correct - I was merely pointing out that not being under pressure was not necessarily the advantage which Schnitzer seemed to be (but possibly wasn't) suggesting.


I don't think anyone here is out to discredit Joe but it would be nice to know the answer. The mere fact that we are having this debate at all shows that there is something not right with the set up.

If what you say is true and the M20E winner should be the fastest M20 on the day - what would you have said if Hector had forsaken his FCC aspirations and entered the M20 E class and come first - after all he's still an M18 no matter what class he enters - would he still have not been elligible for the title?

It doesn't work does it?

[Rookie]

M/W18 M/W20E and M/W21E were all run on the same M/W course in the morning as part of the elite competition so fastest junior should have won 20E and the fastest person 21E.

Rather than going on about what should have happened this year, how about sort it for next year (OD hosting).

People enter elite, open or a vet/junior class.
Year of birth is used to determine which prizes you can get from one nice long results list, and you win all the prizes you are eligible for
If it's FCC no need to get people to enter a different class, put YOB on the results and the FCC scores person can work out scores from that

We don't need classes to enter when they are on the same course, just enter the course and your eligibility can be figured out. And put 18s on elite for FCC scoring (and if the individual 18 isn't "elite" then they can go on open and score it 40, 36, 33, 31, 30 like on M/W20L when there is an elite course, same for the 20s)

Mmm! there certainly seems to be no consistency in the rules as an M16 entering the FCC races can take points from M18s he beats.

It did say that in the ECG minutes where the rules change was mentioned, 18s and 20s will be scored separately even on the same course(eg. this weekend or JM5L courses) but 16s entering as 18s will score, as would (for example) an 18 entering M20L/E at JK or a national.
Agree it's stupid though, the series is to find the best 20 and 18 seperately, and as 16s can't compete for it then they shouldn't score

I would like FCC changing to 30 qualifiers and 18s and 20s compete and score together at every race - it is meant to be for JWOC selection

just realised, I should have awarded my M20 Midland Night Champion prize to Rose Hodkinson...

[Adventure Racer]

And put 18s on elite for FCC scoring (and if the individual 18 isn't "elite" then they can go on open and score it 40, 36, 33, 31, 30 like on M/W20L when there is an elite course, same for the 20s)

That's just as silly. How do you decide whether an M18 is "elite" or not - also might it not lead to somebody getting more points for running "non-elite" than somebody who'd run the same course faster as an "elite"?

[Rookie]

how do you decide if a 21E entrant is elite or not?
generally it's not a problem since elite in Britain isn't over subscribed. The 18s and 20s (and 16s, 14s, 12s whatever..) on the elite course, if too many people entered, would have to be selected, as with the 21s (35s, 40s ... 80s). There would be a max number of juniors and a max number of seniors, as there always is on elite courses


and yes it might lead to more points, i even considered entering long at the JK for that reason last year, but decided it was better to go for it on E and ended up with less than 40 points (obvously not guaranteed to win long anyway though)

but, the chances of being over subscribed are pretty low i think
anyway, implement my final suggestion for changing FCC, it becomes an M/W20E competition (elite junior, all juniors) so if people can't get on the elite class then there's no point them doing FCC

[schnitzer]

Starting late is generally an advantage that has to be earned, e.g. by performance in an earlier race (e.g. British Sprint Champs, JK day 2 individual, all WOC Finals these days) or by seniority (JWOC Classic, WOC Classic in olden times).

But we're not talking about earned seeding, we're talking about seeding based on current form, e.g. by elite competitions (e.g. British Sprint Champs Qualification, British Middle Champs, JK day 1 individual).

I agree that this can complicate things with seedings, but weren't the 18s in a block together and the 20s in a block together?

Good point Rach at least Hector/Anne were involved in some sort of seeding but it's still not the same conditions. IMO in order to compete fairly against Joe, Ben and John you should be seeded with them whether that is an advantage or not. Anyway it was probably a few degrees cooler for the M/W18's.

Moreover, the morning race was the British Elite Championships, and the afternoon was the non-elite races. If the 18s aren't eligible for an Elite Championship, they shouldn't been have given morning starts at all.

Isn't the FCC an elite championship?

If what you say is true and the M20E winner should be the fastest M20 on the day - what would you have said if Hector had forsaken his FCC aspirations and entered the M20 E class and come first - after all he's still an M18 no matter what class he enters - would he still have not been elligible for the title?

It doesn't work does it?

I think it works perfectly - as long as the fastest M/W20 means the fastest M/W20 entrant regardless of running up or not. You enter what class you want and therefore you are seeded by current form regardless of actual age class. Only then do you have the same conditions as the other entrants, i.e. you are all involved in the seeding for that class.

[awk]

I'm not going to get into the Hector/Joe debate (I don't know the niceties of the situation, and anyway they're both major assets to my club, and I'm very grateful they run so well for us), but the general principle of what people is discussing has long bugged me:

For instance, I currently run M45; we are often partnered with M50 (L and S). I can never understand why our results are listed separately and there can be an M45 winner who is beaten by one or more M50s. This sort of thing happens all the time in orienteering, and it's usually a nonsense. I also noticed that the M40+ prizes at the British Sprints were going to people who had been well beaten by M40+s who had entered as M21E (same course - I still can't understand why people weren't just asked to enter their broadband age class, and then seeding etc. can be sorted out by organisers): made a complete nonsense of those prizes.

These situations come about it seems to me because too much emphasis in orienteering is placed on subdividing into countless classes, particularly at point of entry, with no regard to courses. What should be happening is that course combinations are available beforehand, people enter the youngest/oldest class they can on the course they are intending to run, and then it's assumed that they are eligible for those classes higher up the pyramid leading to M/W21 (Open).

The exceptions are, of course, things like when there are public races on a course after the main competition etc.

[Roger]

...we're not talking about earned seeding, we're talking about seeding based on current form...

Surely that's 'earned' too!

IMO in order to compete fairly against Joe, Ben and John you should be seeded with them whether that is an advantage or not.

I can't find a working link to UK Cup seeding rules so I have to speculate, but I presume that the start lists and seedings for the Middle Champs will have followed the UK Cup rules. In which case, everybody who ran in the morning, designated as being the Elite Champs, will have been seeded following the same set of rules.

So it's not a case of 18s, then 20s, then 21s -- merely (I speculate and would be glad to be corrected) UK Cup points to date. And so the people in question really were "seeded with them".

[DIDSCO]

This threads a joke!

Hector entered H18L - won it, well done mate

Joe Mercer entered H20elite - won it, well done mate
you are the 2007 British H20 elite middle distance champion, enjoy your success.

If Hector wanted to try and win H20elite he should have entered that course. Those are the current rules. Whether the rules are right or not is another thing, but the fact is Joe Mercer is the rightful British Champion in H20Elite, well done mate.

[schnitzer]

Joke:

Oh yes they really were seeded together... in the same room? In the same evening? By the same person?

Serious:

No difference in what you say Dids and what I've been saying, just less trainspotter detail.

[Tatty]

I wonder how it was worked out, because in the W55+ class the top two prizes went to people who hadn't entered that class!! Hilary had entered W21E and Judy W40+. However they were both given prizes, in my mind justifiably so, because they beat the rest of us W55's. BUT why was this rule applied to us and not in other classes. Was it just because those concerned knew they were W55's. In which case didn't they know that Hector and Anne were M/W 18's. Seems a strange anomally!!

[Lizi Beee]

but weren't the 18s in a block together and the 20s in a block together?

you'd think that wouldn't you, but for some reason I was an hour before any of the other 4 W20Es (who all started the 2mins apart). I believe there were 18s separated by 16s as well, but to be honest I don't know what was going on there and it may well have been some attempt at seeding.