Sensible awarding of trophies/titles

[Homer]

I can not understand (with respect to Joe) why Joe Mercer is the M20 British Middle Distance Champion.
He was beaten by Hector Haines (M18) running the same course so surely Hector is the real British Champion? If not, perhaps someone could explain why?
Also I note Hector didn't gain any UK Cup points for his efforts. Why again?
A similar thing happened on Saturday with the awarding of prizes for the veteran classes.

I believe we need to get the awarding of trophies and titles sorted out in British Orienteering as it makes us look silly. What does anyone else think?

[schnitzer]

Hector didn't enter the elite course therefore wasn't racing against the other top juniors and also not starting anywhere near them. So even though he ran the same course it could be argued he wasn't under as much pressure.

Anyway in order to be British Orienteering Champion doesn't it make sense that you have to enter the elite course? Also the UK cup is an elite competition so same for that. Having said that last year M21L/M21S/M35L etc were included in the UK cup points but I'm not sure if the rules have changed.

[Ed]

The L classes hadn't got UKCup points because in a fit of absent-mindedness I simply clicked on the "elite results" link, uploaded them and forgot about the L-classes.

I've now corrected this, so the L-runners have got their points, and rather a lot of them in some cases!

(note to anyone who has queries like this in the future: please PM, e-mail or use the contact page on the ukcup.db site to let me know, as I'm definitely not infallible)

[Roger]

The 18s were told that they had to enter as such in order to score any Future Champions Cup points; those that had entered 21E were asked whether they wished to change to their 'proper' class, even though the course was the same.

I thought that orienteering overcame such artificialities when the men's classes were officially designated 'open', in time for Yvette to show (nearly) everybody how to do it in the 1998 British Relays at Mytchett. Apparently not.

Anyone eligible for a class should count.

For me, the open question is whether people 'running up' should be eligible for two prizes: e.g. top junior/veteran as well as second senior. This issue crops up much more often in road- and trail-races of course, where everyone runs the same course. Opinion splits three ways:
1. multiple prizes allowed (simplest and arguably fairest);
2. only one prize per person, each prize-winner in order taking the prize of highest value / most prestige;
3. everyone competes strictly within own age-class.

I have seen the third option resulting in the 8th-placed finisher being awarded '3rd senior man', when 6th and 7th (the 4th and 5th vets) got nothing. This is ludicrous and makes the sport a laughing-stock. Orienteering usually has much more sensible rules than athletics; let's not open ourselves up to ridicule.

[Nottinghamshire outlaw]

The event guideline is quite clear:
Two separate courses should be provided for the Middle distance race, as follows:
Course Classes TD Winning Time
(mins)
1 M20E, M21E 5 30 - 35
2 W20E, W21E 5 30 - 35
Although separate results listings for each class should be produced
to determine the M/W20E and M/W21E results, it is possible for an
M/W20 competitor to win both classes.

From that it would seem that an 18 could win the 20 and the 21 class too. The results were complicated by the separation into different classes when in fact the event was seeking to find the senior and junior elite mens and womens champions.

[RS]

So was the title awarded to the wrong person?

[RS]

...and looking at the girls, that would make Anne 2nd on juniors

[Mrs H]

Mmm! there certainly seems to be no consistency in the rules as an M16 entering the FCC races can take points from M18s he beats.

Hector did not run in the public races and was wearing a bib which proclaimed he was taking part in the British Middle Distance Championship. He ran the class he was very firmly instructed to do so.

So even though he ran the same course it could be argued he wasn't under as much pressure.

and he might have run even faster if he had been.

As the fastest junior on the course and as he was not taking part in the public races how can he not be junior elite middle distance champion? It doesn't make any sense.

[JimB]

3. everyone competes strictly within own age-class.

I have seen [this] option resulting in the 8th-placed finisher being awarded '3rd senior man', when 6th and 7th (the 4th and 5th vets) got nothing. This is ludicrous and makes the sport a laughing-stock.

In North America, the joke was that M35 and M40 existed to protect people from the older, faster M45s.

I agree, let the fastest win. In the results of running races that I've been in, generally everyone's in one list, with markings to show age, gender, etc. The Colorado/Wyoming event (Rocky Mountain 1000-Day) has long done this (results by course, with a column for category). I like it a lot.

[schnitzer]

Surely it is unfair to the M/W20E top finishers to suggest that M/W18 runners should have been on the podium instead.

Presumably the M/W20E start times were configured by the elite competitions group - 5/6 M/W20E podium occupants had to start within minutes of each other. Rockaldo was a bit of an outlier but only because of Iain Embrey DNS. If Hector/Anne had entered M/W20E then they would've been seeded with the others as top contenders. OK so it was unfortunate that they had to run M/W18 for FCC points because I'm sure they would've rather been in the M/W20E seeded starts amongst the more serious competitors for experience.

I'm not saying that they would've have necessarily done different (better or worse - thanks Mrs H!) times/made mistakes because of the extra pressure of running with someone just that in order to be a fair race everyone should have the same conditions.

[Roger]

... in order to be a fair race everyone should have the same conditions.

Starting late is generally an advantage that has to be earned, e.g. by performance in an earlier race (e.g. British Sprint Champs, JK day 2 individual, all WOC Finals these days) or by seniority (JWOC Classic, WOC Classic in olden times).

The 18s were not in amongst the general public (which arguably could have been an advantage), and were not out later than the 20E and 21E seeds. Instead, they were out early, making the tracks, and lacking the security that can come from having a fast rival close behind ("if I miss then I won't lose much, because Xxxx will collect me"). If the youngsters can do better despite these disadvantages, then they definitely deserve to be on the podium.

[Rach]

M/W21E is an open category and the fastest out of everyone wins. M/W20E is an under 21 category so the fastest under 21 should win. I agree that this can complicate things with seedings, but weren't the 18s in a block together and the 20s in a block together?

[graeme]

... I hate to say I told you so ...

According to the website:
Titles being contested are The Men's British Sprint Champion and The Women's British Sprint Champion. Only National members of British Orienteering are eligible for these titles.
* There will be separate class winners for M/W 18-, M/W 40+ and M/W 55+.
So there are age class winners at the British Sprint Championships. Admittedly, its not clear how it will be decided...
But I'm sure they'll think of something Smile

It is already formally established by elite competitions that running first is a disadvantage (split-starting parents on elite have to start first).

Moreover, the morning race was the British Elite Championships, and the afternoon was the non-elite races. If the 18s aren't eligible for an Elite Championship, they shouldn't been have given morning starts at all.

Meanwhile, at the sprint there was no way to tell when you entered if you'd run the same course as the elites. I asked at enquiries on the morning if I needed to do anything to be eligible for M40, and was told I didn't (apart from needing sufficient experience at failure to die).

With these new formats, we really need to know which course and which competitions we're entering, and if one British Elite Champs course comprises, M/W18 (not elite), 20E 21E, FCC and UKCup you should be eligible for all those competitions.

[EddieH]

Roger's second scenario can also thow up oddities. I once won a bottle of whisky and £20 at the Creag Dubh race as first veteran. This was despite finishing 7th overall, but the first 3 were all vets thu receiving the open category prizes. 4th to 6th got nothing.

In orienteering at the Midland Nights I once entered M21 when I was M35. As it turned out M20, M21 and M35 all ran the same course. I received the accolade of champion in the premier class despite being beaten by Alun Powell running M20, and Paul Graetz (then an M40) but running M35!

[Toni]

I would be surprised if either Anne or Hector begrudged their GB squad team mates podium placing - they both have bigger goals this year and I'm pretty sure that Hector and Anne will be on the M/W20E and 21E podium in the future.