JK 2007 Review

[Lumpy Lycra]

yes, the JK was brilliant and yes, the least brilliant bit for me were the hours in the download tent on day 2.

Download man power was primarily provided by HOC (combined experience of emit other than as competitors - not a fat lot) and I'd guess the start team at the White start could easily have been in a similar position.

To answer this thread's original question:

Is this the way for the future with a central co-ord team who do all the big events?

I'd say yes - but it throws up other challenges, such as sourcing knowledgable team leaders for volunteers that are working outside their normal orienteering expertise.

Which is to take nothing away from all that the emit experts did on the day (and the following night!), just that the person fixing code / results cannot be managing the problems on the ground and making sure that juniors and elites alike are given the right messages and reassurance.

[jab]

The problem with the juniors times on Saturday wasn't due to the kids in question not having used Emit before. They were all told to touch their cards to the wake up unit in the start lane and were assured that this was all they needed to do (I know because I asked). Unfortunately the cards hadn't woken up. That wakeup unit was replaced when the problem was noticed so later starters were OK.
My son started early and at download his card still had splits from the sprint. My son knew that he hadn't mispunched when he finished and he was glad he'd taken the time to get a full set of pin punches to prove it, but he didn't have a time and he wasn't sure how (or even whether) he would get a time or whether he would remain disqualified or whether the course would have to be voided. In fact what had happened was that the cards had recorded all the controls at the end of the card so (because it was a timed start) the splits were recoverable. Or that's how it was explained to me anyway by the team at enquiries!

We did have a very stressed out child for a while because we knew the timing was very close. And I know that plenty of other juniors were even more distressed. And some of the kids with times were anxious to know where they actually stood in the results (as I know LostAgain can verify!) But, as I said in my previous post, some people worked really hard so that the times were recovered before we left the assembly area and we are enormously grateful for that.

[pmats]

This is what I saw at the event - happy people, great terrain, great orienteering, great atmosphere, a few old faces (not necessarily looking great), great banter, etc etc.

This is what I didn't see at the event but have found out since - Kids crying because they got dsq'd, parents crying because their kids got dsq'd, people blaming emit for their inability to use it, winsplits for the M21L all to cock, badly mapped areas, etc etc.

Either way it sounds like a great weekend - well done to all involved!

I look forward to next years event when all of the "feedback" has been taken on board and it is perfect!

[Mr timE]

JIMB wrote

I wonder how the organizing is with touch-free. If the units are always-on, like normal Emits, and the software is decent, then it could be a dreamy system...low hassle for organizers and competitors alike.

The touch-free were designed for ski-o and the plastic plate happens to fit exactly on the side of an O-Kite, although the unit itself could be A5 or less. Problem for conventional O is they go to sleep after 2 hrs to conserve battrey (only last 1000hrs) so would need waking as per Si. They register on the card exactly same as normal controls so work with all software.

They have a 1 metre range, but best to touch control anywhere and then always check card, the card outline on them is for version 2 user who need to make physical contact. Also good for MTBO, canoeO, swimO, horseO and CarO. If you like so much Jim they will be used for Scottis 6 Day sprint race and the Inugural Military Sprint race at HMS Sultan, Gosport on Sat before Nov Classic which will be open to all.

[Mr timE]

Jab has it correct about the problem with the juniors times on Saturday. The MTR0 reader used at the white start failed, these units are MTR3 download units that can be converted to MTR0 which clears the card, but primarily is there to record card number so can be downloaded at timed start events to show who did not start. They should bleep and flash red light, but as team were unfamiliar it took a while for problem to register. With 3 starts I was asked for 8 of them and therefore had to convert some MTR3s, unfortunately one of the two I borrowed and converted from RMAS did not work properly. It should not have been a problem as all competitors were suppose to also use a start unit as well at -1, but again that was not enforced due to unfamiliarity, it worked perfectly on Day 3 with the benefit of hindsight. By getting all to also use a start at -1 it means we catch the odd late arrival who might sneak past the MTR0, but also your card display time will always be showing your race time to within one minute. EMIT showed MN how to recover the times, so all was well. 3 server crashes at the same time did not help the situation, even with a UPS on. There is no drift on card times, they can be accurate to 1/100th of a sec if required.

[JimB]

I recall someone being told not to use the -1 Emit start unit, but rather the handheld gizmo (an MTR I guess). Definitely something that would be helped by more familiarity with the system by organizers and participants; this took a dozen events with SI.

There is no drift on card times, they can be accurate to 1/100th of a sec if required.

A bit confused by your statement. Do you mean that the cards drift less than 10ms per some time period (an hour?), or that they can give a readout to 0.01s?

[Mr timE]

Apologies for the confusion, the cards can give a readout to .000 if required, which they sometimes do for sprint races, the software can be changed to run the display faster by which I mean it shows time down below 1 sec. By default to be able to give that accuracy they must not be able to drift. That said at the last few world champs there has been a separate timing system and the cards (Emit or Si) have just been used to record controls visited and give splits.

[JimB]

Have there been any tests to measure the variability of the cards' clocks? (A clock may be able to display time to the millisecond, but that's not necessarily proof of how stable it is over time, or how fast it runs relative to other clocks of the same kind.)

[Paul Frost]

I wondered if there is going to be any sort of report from the organisers, planners etc. With the amount of comment on NopeSport, some critical, it would be nice to read the official explanations.

I have also started a new thread:
Emit and SI confidence to discuss the issues.

[Jagge]

Have there been any tests to measure the variability of the cards' clocks? (A clock may be able to display time to the millisecond, but that's not necessarily proof of how stable it is over time, or how fast it runs relative to other clocks of the same kind.)

I know two emit cards here in Finland with a clock running all the time clearly at wrong speed. Both of them about 10-15% too slowly. If you use them for time taking, you get 10% too fast times. This is why emit brick's internal clock should never be used straight for taking times in competitions. Using it in trainings is of course OK.

This is how it is done here (if I have got it right): We clear about 2-4 min before start, start without any punching, at finish line we punch and download about 0...2 min after finish punch depending how far we need to walk or wait. There the software calculates how many seconds ago the finish punch happenned:

computers time - (bricks download time - bricks finish punch time)

Result = finish punch time - start time (read from the database, not from the brick).

If brick's clock drifts, only drifting between finish punch and download affects the result time. And if it drifts a lot, it can be seen by comparing clearing time stamps (time calculated using bricks time vs. estimated "3 min before start".)

If online control is used at finish line, as it usually is here these days, this finish punch calculating procedure is not needed, we get finish time straight from computer's clock and bricks internal clock is used just for splits. But for some reason Emit's online controls usually misses about 0.5% of punches, so for that 0.5% we have to use this procedure described above (you get the puch to your brick just fine, but the computer listening the online control does not get all puches for some reason).

Also because times are calculated like this, the clear time is obsolete and if you forget to do it or you do it unsuccesfully, it usually does not matter at all (if you have enough space for your punches). But still here succesfull clearing operation is considered so essential, we always have a person checking you do it properly (it even may be our O federation's rule organizer must have a person there) and you usually can not start if you don't clear your card.

Anyway, it is important to make this work in a foolproof way, eliminating all possibilities to make human error. And if human error (or a technical error) happens, the system should be ready for it and survive it anyway.

EDIT: To make sure, this was not about Emit's own eTiming software. It is not used here in Finland at all.

[drobin]

Fantastic JK.

Day 3, New Beechenhurst, M55L, leg 2 to 3 (47 to 46), oh, same as M50L BOK badge event May 2002! I look forward to doing it again in 2012 as a M60!

I bought a version 3 emit card in January 2004 and have used it for more than 60 events since then and without any trouble. Granted it does take longer to get used to. However, I've never had a missed punch with it. I don't use a backup card and I rarely fully insert the brick and it always agrees with my watch timing. I usually check for scrolling bars at the same time as I check the control code. I use to favour SI, but now find emit is quicker and more reliable. So there.

[SeanC]

I've never used emit, but it surely must be a good thing for the sport to have two technologies each competing for our custom? Long live both emit and SI. So there

Mrs H's idea of a central co-ordinating team for big events sounds like a good one. These points for improvements could be directed at this co-ordinating team rather than just on nopesport in the hope that the relevant person might be reading. Should any of this co-ord team be paid officials? I think we would be entitled to have high expectations of paid officials. If someones volunteering their time for free I personally find it difficult to be critical unless I'm put in danger. It sounds like the organisation at the JK was excellent though.

[Fat and Forty]

Just back from 5 days post JK Munro bagging (no snow but the view down Loch Nevis from Sgurr Na Ciche made up for it) just picking up on a couple of items.

Jon, the "idiot in the Volvo" originated from the first aid area.

With regard to the Day 2 (Sunday) map, the all controls map I saw after my run definitely had clearings on Crabtree Hill that were not on my map. I gather something to do with the printing process (Litho?), I'm sure the geeks will explain.

Anyway thanks to everyone involved in the organisation for a great weekend

[jab]

It should not have been a problem as all competitors were suppose to also use a start unit as well at -1, but again that was not enforced due to unfamiliarity

There wasn't a -1 start unit at the white start early on Saturday. When we got to the start I asked where to clear the cards (OK, I confess, I used SI terminology but I think the meaning was clear) and was definitely told that the unit in the start line was all that was available/needed.

[EddieH]

I noticed NONE of these negatives. I thought EVERYTHING about the event was fantastic. Many, many thanks to all volunteers.

Regarding the unmapped clearings - I never noticed them - as the map had only a single colour in the area they had no relevence.