UK Cities Cup 2007

[Axel]

I hope that our elite friends enjoy the series and if that is way nope wishes to run the competition then all well and good. However their attitude stinks and if the rest of the orienteering frat has any sense then they will boycott the races and keep their money in their pockets .

This is exactly the same line BO have taken with the Brit Sprint and Middle Distance Champs. As per usual the great majority of the orienteers can turn up pay their entry fees to make the events financial viable and then be ignored. Unfortunately there are to many nice people in the UK that don't complain enough and thus are taken for granted

[Rookie]

Nope have taken some existing races, found sponsors and prizes, offered to do the work of keeping scores, great. I'll be running, unlikely to be in the top 10 but I'll try.

I'm sure in future if people/clubs put on the races with veteran/junior sprints and middles as well as open/"elite" then they can be in a future series.

British Sprints and Middles incorporate the British Elite Sprint and Middle Champs.
The whole point of a British Championship is to find the British Champion, the person who wins M/W21E (with the junior champion winning M/W20E) so an elite focus is perfectly justified. And watching elite athletes is much more exciting, at any sport.

That's not to say there can't be supporting races.
British Elite Long is supported by age class races (the British Champs), no reason why the middle couldn't be as well if the organisers want it to (maybe fewer classes, minis, junior, vets, supers, etc.). I'm sure British Orienteering would support the winners of these classes calling themselves and age-class British Champion

For the sprint, i say might as well give everyone a go in the qualifier, like at present, then the finals get progressively shorter from A to D which is likely to take into account the ages. A proper super-vet sprint would probably be about 1km long to get the right winning time, which wouldn't be very interesting.

Axel, at this years Middle Champs (looks all inclusive to me):
Course number Course Title Classes Expected winning time Indicative distance Comments
1 Elite Men M18, M20E, M21E 30 - 35 mins 6 km British Elite Middle Distance Championship Course
2 Elite Women W18, W20E, W21E 30 - 35 mins 4.75 km British Elite Middle Distance Championship Course
1 Men's Open M21 , M35 35 mins 6 km
2 Women's Open W21 , W35 35 mins 4.75 km
3 Veteran Men M40 , M45 , M50 35 mins 5 km
4 Supervet Men M55+ 25 - 30 mins 3.75 km
5 Veteran Women W40 , W45 , W50 30 - 35 mins 3.75 km
6 Supervet Women W55+ 25 - 30 mins 2.5 km
7 Junior Men M16 2.25 km TD equal to Light Green
8 Junior Women W16 1.9 km TD equal to Light Green
9 Young Juniors M/W14 1.8 km TD equal to Orange (*New*)
10 Minis M/W12 1.75 km TD equal to Yellow (was course 9)
11 Super-minis M/W10 1.4 km TD equal to White (was course 10)


I'm all for all-inclusiveness, and think the UK-Cup should be extended to all age groups (not the huge number of current classes though- ideally replacing rankings). Just don't moan at people taking existing races and trying to make an interesting series out of them.

[Adventure Racer]

If your Swedish friend is right Harry, then women shouldn't be allowed to run sprint either, as I'm certainly not elite, but can run (if not orienteer) faster than some elite women.

[Steve]

Good range of opinions so far, and people like AWK have made my point much better than I was able to make it myself.

I'm still hoping that arch-sprint-o-proponent SimonE will tell us what he thinks.

[graeme]

A little bit of added value to existing races from TNS for their own age group: it wont detract from whats already there. How can that be anything but good?

If you grumpy M45s don't like it organise your own!
(bugger, just realised that should read "we grumpy M45s"...)

Top 10 broadly reflects the number of people who take the UK cup seriously (i.e. score in the 6 races). That's where we are with elite races.

The only thing I don't understand is why the TNS Scottish Sprint race at Heriot Watt isn't in the series - its going to be fantastic (isn't it?)

[Wattok]

The only thing I don't understand is why the TNS Scottish Sprint race at Heriot Watt isn't in the series - its going to be fantastic (isn't it?)

it's not in the series but yes it will be fantastic!

[awk]

This is exactly the same line BO have taken with the Brit Sprint and Middle Distance Champs.... Unfortunately there are too many nice people in the UK that don't complain enough and thus are taken for granted

I have to disagree with you there Axel. We (the whole family) attended the British Sprint Champs last year, and thoroughly enjoyed it. This was nothing about being 'too nice': we positively liked the open competition and the mixing of everybody together - that is one thing that sprint really enables. My reaching the C Final was certainly above my expectations, and gave me something to build on for the future!

The next stage could be to provide prizes/trophies for the best in (broad banded) age groups (for goodness sake, not the over narrow 5 year bands), but I would not want to introduce age class competition at the expense of the 'everybody take part in the same competition' approach. We don't need shorter distances for instance - after all, they don't shorten the 100m sprint for the older vets!

My one comment about nopesport's competition was the over narrow scoring structure: I don't think it helps, but then their objectives may be different to what I would personally have done (and after all they've gone ahead and done it, and I haven't).

Graeme: maybe only 10 or so elite take sprinting seriously, but plenty of others do as well, and more would with a bit more encouragement, which is part of the point I was trying to make. Any competition like this should be about looking forward, not simply reflecting the current state, which is a mistake that has all too often been made in orienteering.

[graeme]

AWK,

I'm trying to make a point about numerics.

In the context of the UK cup, I defined "serious" as "had a full set of counting scores". It's reasonable for TNS to bases their scoring on the assumption of a similar number of "serious" elites.

Below the top 10 in the UK cup positions have more to do with how many races you went to than how good you are (e.g. one year I was tied with Jamie Stevenson !).

What they're suggesting has a decent chance of having the best people at the top (which is the aim), rather than being an attendance prize (which might be a legitimate alternate aim).


Graeme, M45, nul points

[Becks]

Just for a point of reference, the Stockholm City Cup, which my mum and dad will also agree is one of the best races we have ever run in, has three classes, Under 17, Over 17 and what would call Super Vets. In the open classes, there are 150 women, there's about 250 men of all standards, from complete beginners to world class elites.

The Scoring system? They produce a cumulative time top ten in each. Top ten, in a field of 250, where most of the top 50 athletes would easily come into a British Sprint Champs top ten. That's it. Nothing outside, just a results list. This doesn't detract from in being an incredible spectacle with awesome races that everyone still wants to race in, because it's one hell of an experience, and more importantly, one hell of a showcase of the sport at both the top end, with the elite attracted by the prizes and the glory, and at every level down with grandmas, kids in buggies and everyone in between racing around the city. A family sport, a competitive, exciting and glamourous sport.

In trying to do something similar to this, the Nope boys aren't reflecting the state of the sport as it is and setting their sights too low. They're trying to push it to be more than it is, by providing a series of races that's both inclusive and competitive. There will be spectacle and excitement, and as I've already said, if you need a sodding cumulative rankings system to appreciate that, you're missing the point. The races themselves are the excitement, as Steve and AWK and everyone have all alluded to.

I may have been harsh in my last post but Axel was both offensive and rude. If he wants a competitive, well funded orienteering squad to support his daughters' in their prospective orienteering careers then it is vital that we try new and different things to pull the sport out of the slump it's in at the moment and generate a bit more public interest and understanding. To suggest a boycott is frankly ridiculous.

[Adventure Racer]

I'm sure most people will thankfully ignore Axel's advice. Rather strange anyway, as the complaint only seems to be over the series rather than individual races - if you're not planning on doing the series, then why boycott individual races (nothing seems to have changed in their organisation)? Most non-elite who experienced the wonderful atmosphere of the BOC Sprint last year will like me be raring to do more, whether or not there is an all-inclusive ranking so they can determine whether they were 31st or 32nd overall

[johnloguk]

The races themselves are the excitement

Hit several nails on the head in 6 simple words Becks

[Adventure Racer]

As per usual the great majority of the orienteers can turn up pay their entry fees to make the events financial viable and then be ignored.

Ignored how? Paying entry fees and then not being allowed to run - no that doesn't seem to be the case. Not having their results recorded and listed in comparison with other peoples - no that neither. Oh, you must mean that only the best runners get prizes. Note to BO: get enough prizes that everybody can have one - preferably awarded in alphabetical order so there is no suggestion of elitism.

[awk]

Becks can you tell us more about the Stockholm City Cup? I've been on the website, but my Swedish is not perfect (!!). It looks like 3 races rather than one which is the impression I formed? Is one a 'big' one, or are they all the same? Sounds really good, and having developed a taste for this sort of thing.....

You're so right about the races being the thing, and we'll be at as many as we can manage with or without a series to go for. Indeed, some of the best races will be those that aren't on the 'circuit': Oxford will I'm sure be a stonker, and I do hope that Lincoln will feature again soon.

And at the end of the day, if the series can raise the profile, and help get more races off the ground, all the better.

[Becks]

The Stockholm City Cup is a three stage competition based at various locations around Stockholm with one every two weeks. I was lucky enough to hit it on an Old Town year, so got to race around there which was unbelievable. The final is the third race, and the top ten from cumulative times in the first two races (in the junior and the open class) get lifted out to do a separate race (this year it was a chasing start with butterfly loops, but I think the format varies each year), which happens after the main competition. For everyone else there is a normal race just before. There's so many people, starts every 30 seconds for a couple of hours, no gaffling, just great high speed racing. There's a bit of seeding, the top twenty from last year I think, but other than that all just random. The maps aren't even ISSOM sprint standards! There's commentary, prizes and momentos, and it's just a fantastic event to race in all round. Want any more info?

[Patrick]

I find it hilarious that Axel, who rants incessantly against political correctness in every other context, is so upset that poor ickle M/W45s and 50s are being heartlessly discriminated against. What could be more PC than providing special categories and prizes for everyone?

In the meantime, I'm launching my own boycott of the JK and British for not providing a special class for injured, knackered M35s-who-pretend-to-be-M21s who can't be bothered travelling hundreds of miles to the events in question. I mean, it's just so unfair...

Patrick