UK Cities Cup 2007

[Ed]

Surely just running points down the entry and keeping a table of points like the FCC is feasible...

feasible? yes. time-consuming? yes. a right pain? yes.

I'd say if you're wanting a more "comprehensive" scoring then you should volunteer yourself to manage it! I'm sure Wattok would appreciate such offers.

[Becks]

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

I was in a really good mood today until I read all the griping here. This is an awesome venture that has taken a hell of a lot of time and effort from the Nope boys already, and it's going to turn out to be a wonderful showcase of our amazing sport.

As Harry says, the Stockholm City Cup has important scoring and things for the top twenty, but the best thing about it is that it's an amazing race atmosphere racing in some exciting city areas with spectators and banter and razzmatazz. You can look at the results to see if you did better or worse than the last time, and run your own little leagues if you're that bothered - sure one of the "geeks" out there can add times together cumulatively on a spreadsheet and stick it on a website somewhere.

Can we not gripe and moan so much about something that is such a positive and exciting step forward please?! How is our sport ever going to grow when people are shot down instantly for sticking their neck out and doing something brave?! Get a grip people!

[Steve]

On the other hand, the nope boys should be proud of themselves for creating something so exciting that everybody wants to be part of it

[Becks]

I can't decide if that's sarcasm or not, but it seems to me that that's precisely what they've done. Sort out your own scoring if you're that bothered, there's not many of them, they all have proper jobs outside Nope, and the experience has to be top priority.

Your initial posts don't read as excitement. They read as whinge whinge whinge whinge whinge oh I'm so disappointed why do they always let me down etc etc.

Well, I can't wait!

[HOCOLITE]

Sorry if I misunderstood Steve originally I thought he was making a guarded reference to the idea milling around that sprint races were the way forward to greater participation and new membership.

I do know about the problems of running leagues/ series and keeping points as my other half does the MADO one which is pretty complex which is why I suggested adding the positions up and lowest wins, I know this is likely to be complicated by how many count etc.

To those who are complaining about these points being raised surely it is better now before the events are under way. I don't think there was any real whinging about the events happening etc.. I thought people were putting forward ideas to make them even more attractive to even more people.

Therefore I apologise if I've upset Becks as I usually widely agree with her.

[Adventure Racer]

I generally agree with Becks - though I'm surprised that the points don't go a little further down (given that there are 18 in the A final at BEOC, and UK Cup points go down to 40 or 50). Easy enough for somebody to put together an unofficial table with points all the way down if the MOPers are bothered about that (I put together unofficial rankings for our local night league last year, and that was far more complex - though admittedly I've not got round to it this year, and the season's almost over!) - I'd suggest that's up to somebody who's bothered enough.

I can't see that it's really that important though - it's still a race series even if you're not in the rankings, and if you want incentive then just try to beat the people who beat you last time out. Personally if I was racing I'd just be after inproving my individual race positions - couldn't care less whether I was 20th or 25th overall!

[P2B]

If sprint races in urban areas = raising the profile of O and encouraging new participants then surely the races should be more 'inclusive' (or the scoring system encompass all the competitors at least).

Just a thought, so please don't shoot me down. I was very excited to read about plans for the series and then a little deflated when I realised the emphasis on elites. I am a lucky one - as a W21 the womens open is my 'natural' course - but not for ever and it's not just the top runners who like a close competition - there's a lot of tears and glory going on further down the results lists!

I appreciate that the organising team is a one man band - I think it's a very brave project and hopefully it will evolve in to a larger scale project over the next few years - the idea certainly has popularity as can be shown by the posts here!

Good luck with it and bring on the JK sprint!

[Steve]

Becks, if I wasn't excited about the series I wouldn't have posted. Sorry if it all comes across negatively, it's just that when city races were being discussed here late last year there was a lot of enthusiasm in the idea of a series of (what I presumed to be) mass participation races. That's why I was disappointed to find that the races are aimed primarily at Elites, with the rest of us just welcome to run at the events if we want to, but with no series results. I was really hoping (expecting I should say) that the city race series would be much more inclusive. Even the UK Cup has 50 scorers doesn't it? If you're not one of the 40 or so top orienteers, you will be equal with everybody else on nil points and there will be little motivation to make the effort to get to more of the races.

I really did think long and hard about posting, and even delayed overnight in case I was being too hasty. But I decided to post because I thought if any changes are going to be made to the format they need to be made now, and my initial post was to try and get some reaction to find out if others felt the same way.

Hocolite, you understood me correctly, I thought this was an opportunity to increase participation, and build on the enthusiasm that appears to have been generated by the Oxford race and others. And by including a broader scoring system a lot of orienteers across the country will feel motivated to make the effort to travel to the events.

There seems to be a gulf between the thinking of elite-types, and that of ordinary orienteers like me. Or maybe there's just a gulf between my thinking and everybody elses... as usual.

[HOCOLITE]

I don't think you are so different Steve. I know of at least two men who run M21L in UK cup races with a view/hope that they might get a point, it serves as a target for them. I have just done three night events (something I would not have considered a year ago) as there is a team competition and as I have a low handicap I can score good points as long as I improve each time. This has been my impetus. I'm not sure about city races as I have a phobia about running in front of my adoring public But I will certainly have a go at the JK. Someone has to come last!

[Wattok]

Perhaps using a couple of broad age categories for urban races would be the way forward in generating a bit more competition? I know the Junior 16s/Open/Vets 40+/Super Vets 55+ system we use isn't universally popular

i think a couple of broad categories may be the way forward but i don't have control over the event format for this years races so am unable to set it up as such.

Maybe next year if clubs are offering races then i could arrange for these classes and have scoring accordingly. However the emphasis will still be on the elite race as it's a showcase PWT style and i will not be able to change the format of races such as BEOC, JK etc. I'm very concious of not making any more work for organising clubs as i feel they have enough to do!

(and Oxford is closer to middle-distance than sprint length, anyway)

Just a note that for races to be included in the series they do not have to be a sprint format.

[EddieH]

At risk of being considered an even bigger geek and whinger, I think you have it wrong Becks. I don't think Steve or Hocolite etc are whinging here. Everyone applauds the series and most of us support the elite.

I didn't post on this because there is really nothing new that I haven't said before.

In brief please understand that status means a lot to all competitive people. Does WOC usually have the best races of the the year? - of course not. But they are the pinnacle of the Elite year BECAUSE they are WOC.

Let the bulk of orienteers have high status competitions and more will turn up, more enjoyment will be had, the organisers get more gate money, and the Elite will get more support.

[harry]

Didn't realise about the top 10 thing, but that's a good idea for simplicity, & working out the prizes.
Time invested should go into producing good issom maps and good courses.

No reason why someone else can't calculate more scores. For the bog & burn series of hill races in Scotland a geeky guy from Westies got annoyed by the slow calculating of scores and just took over the scoring! Even doing a women only spreadsheet separately. The all inclusive FCC system is a right faff, but it's good all the juniors are included.

A more controversial viewpoint, not mine, but that of an unfit 45+ yr old ex-elite Swede, is that non-elites should not be allowed to run sprint anyway because it's too embarassing to watch. He reckons Sprint orienteering is a waste of time and not challenging at slow pace. Ha ha, I won't come back to this thread now anyway so I hope that stirs things up a bit...

[Nottinghamshire outlaw]

just a couple of thoughts:

1. this is great for showcasing the sport in the cities - but then to capitalise on the 'showcasing' couldn't/shouldn't the local club use the map to run a more 'open' event or series of events for local people and sell it as an urban challenge or whatever?

2. Harry - sorry to disagree with your swedish 'friend' about 'old dears' being embarrassing to watch 'sprinting' as (a) I don't care what people think of what I look like when attempting to 'run' never mind about 'sprint'! and (b) I have had some far more challenging orienteering at some urban races that some regional or national events and that's why I enjoy taking part in them

[Mrs H]

I'm not much fussed about this but thought the following point was worth making.

Elite sprint races are great for bringing the sport to the attention of the public - BUT - the gap between the elite and the general public is too big to bridge in terms of "I could do that".

You need the likes of lardy me wobbling red faced round the course to make (possibly slightly younger) women think - "If she can do it, then I certainly could" - it's a visible challenge.

Don't forget to make sure everyone gets numbers with the race name and an easy web address on them so the alsorans don't look like a random bunch of joggers - best advert out in my opinion.

[awk]

Well, I can't wait!

I'm sure you can't Becks - after all, you'll be a contender. Really it comes down to what the objectives are. If purely to showcase to the general public, then yes, it looks a great idea. If it's to promote city racing and encourage people to take part, then less so: it's too exclusive for that. I agree with Mrs H's analysis of what's needed there!

I think you're also being very harsh. Orienteers are by nature participants rather than watchers. Experience has shown that if you want orienteers to take an interest, you've got to provide a more participatory carrot. All the 'whingeing' is simply because the scoring system means that whilst quite a lot of people would like to take part, virtually nobody outside a small elite group will effectively be able to do so. It also means that individual events aren't really helped in attracting more than a very few competitors: a wider spread competition would have provided an extra appeal in terms of numbers.

Personally, I'm not that bothered. I'm already convinced of the joys of city racing, and couldn't disagree more with Harry's Swedish friend - they've produced some of the most technical (and enjoyable) races I've done for years, even at my pace.