Where have all the young uns gone

[jab]

I don't think that either championship or gold certificates are sent out automatically any more. We haven't received any for a couple of years now.

[awk]

Do your C4 events have portaloos and all that mullarky doon sooth these days?

Yes.

I would ask a different question to you. Rather than:

but apart from maps (which hopefully will be print on-demand at events soon) where are the costs for C4s?

my question is: what justifies the massive price differential between regional and district events, when nothing more is offered at regionals? (Indeed, in my recent experience, less is offered, particularly in terms of competition). I have been really quite disappointed with the majority of regional events in the past year or so, particularly compared to district events, and am now seriously questioning whether they are worth entering in future unless on an outstanding area. There are plenty of excellent, cheaper races to do, and I can then save up for events like the JK, British etc.!

I note our (Gramp)Regional event entry fee is more than double than that for District and I don't expect the club will make much on the event either.

Costs will obviously differ given the wide range of circumstances under which events are organised, but we make a reasonable surplus/profit even on district events (or so I gather). Your post implies that yours make a loss. Is that right?

[David_Young]

Thanks for the replies about age vs ageless classes. However, the central question is this: if my daughter reaches, say, silver standard twice as JW3 and once as W12A, can she claim a silver badge? It sounds like the answer could be yes, but it would be nice if that was written down somewhere, and I haven't yet found it.

Whether or not Regional events are "major" (they seem so to us, when most of what we do is local) it still seems terribly complex to have age classes for juniors at national level and ageless at regional. I seem to remember that when ageless classes were first introduced, there was some publicity from British Orienteering explaining the point, and it seemed to me to have some merit, but I don't remember anything that justified mixing the two systems, which is really what I'm moaning about.

On the other topic - I find it very surprising when people suggest scrapping Regional events and keeping District events. I feel just the opposite, in that the Regional events are on average higher quality terrain and contribute to the badge scheme and the national rankings. I like having both, though.

[Gnitworp]

Sorry for another violent swing in topic in this belated reply to Neil M35's last post.

You can't compare a National middle or sprint race series with a series based on the B races of the present national setup. If there were 8 National Long events a year and these were the only events based on age groups and they were all high quality then the level of competition would be much higher than at present. The shorter races would be standalone races in their own right - along the lines of the British Middle and Sprint at Star Posts in 2005, or the Rowney Warren race this year. Fewer courses with more numbers - the Star Posts middle race had 130+ on the mens course, Rowney had similar numbers split across 4 mens courses. Did you enjoy these events, Gnitworp?

Maybe what I am proposing wouldn't suit everybody, but the status quo certainly doesn't suit the M21/M35/M40 age groups.

If you can give them status and publicity comparable to the UK Cup with trophies and/or prizes(some people think veterans should 'grow up' and not ask for such things) then you might stimulate sufficient participation and interest.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's, the ranking lists were sponsored first by Peter Dominic, and then by TSB Life, with decent prizes for the class winners, e.g., a £50 wine voucher from Peter Dominic.

Contrastingly, in 2006, there were no final year-end lists published showing class winners as always previously (these are the only meaningful lists in which everyone has had a full year to score in their class), and I am told that such lists are not to be made available retrospectively. This must surely be a nadir from which it is only possible to rise.

The answer to your question 'did I enjoy the Star Posts and Rowney Warren events?' Neil, is yes, especially Star Posts where I had the opportunity to race against allcomers including your good self; an awk Utopia?

[awk]

David

It may not be written down (I agree it should be) but the answer is yes.
Which is why the ageless/age schemes are 'mixed' - to allow that very thing to happen that you want to happen - there's your justification! However, I would disagree on your comment that the schemes are mixed. Firstly, this is the only point of 'mixing' - in all other respects its a progression where the ageless lead to the age classes, and the schemes are otherwise separate.

However, I do agree that it seems a bit unfortunate that there are three 'schemes' - colour, ageless, age. The reason is that the ageless scheme was never fully implemented: we got part of the way, but nothing has been done with it since the first phase of implementation. A logical step (and the one I envisaged) would have been something like:

e.g.
District event = Orange
Regional event = Orange course including JM3, JW3 and Seniors as separate classes
National event = Orange course including JM3 (with M12 and M13+), JW3 (with W12 and W13+), and Seniors

This isn't radically different from the current scheme - just opening up M14B and W14B to older ones - but would have provided a more obvious pathway, and needed to be advertised that way (it isn't - like you I don't see anywhere that this is explained obviously). For a starters, I would make much more of putting results from the same course together in results (even as a senior I hate having to rummage through results to look for those from the same course but in different and often meaningless classes).

As to Regional events being 'major'. They may be on higher quality terrain in your area, but the last 2 or 3 regionals I have been to have been on distinctly ordinary terrain compared to quite a few 'other' events I've done recently. And planning/mapping is often no better (that's being polite in some cases). As to badge and rankings, so what if the competition is not up to much? - The rankings list becomes pretty meaningless once the numbers in a class drop below 15 , and that's all too often.

[SeanC]

I prefer going to our local league events than going to a regional event (I find them more friendly). However I don't think thats a good enough reason to propose reducing regional event numbers or scrapping them whilst they are so popular with other orienteers.

Going back slightly to the original thread, if there is the situation where the effort required to organising major events for the experienced o addicts hampers grass roots development of the sport which brings in more juniors and families (eg publicity, a good local league) then I can see that there's a good argument for reducing the number of regional and above events we run.

[FatBoy]

With numbers as they are at most regional events I don't see what extra you get as a competitor, or as an organiser.

As a competitor you have to pay more and part with cash in advance (when something may crop up which means you can't go).

As an organiser you're getting the same number of people but are expected to provide better facilities, even if that expectation is self-imposed. With pre-printed maps and electronic punching the norm at district events now you're looking at things like sealing map bags being the extra value. Often the appeal is supposed to be an area that's been "saved" for it, but doesn't mean the area's any good.

As an M21 I get to run a little further at a regional event, which is useful training for when it comes to BOC/JK and the courses are nearly double the length of an average brown course. However without many others on the course to compare with it is really a training run not the heralded competition it's supposed to be. Many district events could easily put on a black often with only a couple of extra controls, and I expect many M35's and M40's would run it as well increasing the competition on it. On the flip side many district events on small areas shouldn't bother with a brown - just advertise what is to be available and everyone is happy.

I'd really like the ranking lists to be useful, but they're not. Partly small fields distort the scores one way or another, and partly because many clubs just don't bother putting the scores in. I checked back and I am currently "waiting" for 6 events to go in. As one is from last March I suspect it never will. We need to shape up the rankings (Neil M35's suggestion is along the right lines I would suggest) or not have them.

Badges for the vast majority don't mean anything, that is not to detract from those who do see it as incentive - mainly juniors. There's nothing to stop a (better) badge scheme from being put in place over district events - after all the ageless classes match colour coded courses anyway. Personally I haven't sent off for the n silver badges I have achieved as an M21. May have even got gold on the odd year but I didn't notice.

As a junior you get no rankings and the ageless classes are effectively colour coded courses, and indeed designed to be. Why is this a good idea? Because when you chose the course you'd like to run you're happier and you progress at the rate you want to. This is true of adults as well as beginners. The new(ish) classes M21V and W21V are provided because many M/W21s struggle to run the short courses, but hardly surprising when M21S is usually about brown distance. M21V can still be too long for a beginner M21 who normally runs green.

...and finally back to the topic. I think the decline in numbers is well documented and discussed, but numbers on a "white" course at a regional event are always going to be volatile. You don't just have to be young, you have to be a beginner as well. I was certainly on orange courses at 10 (is that JM3?).

[Rookie]

If you can give them status and publicity comparable to the UK Cup with trophies and/or prizes(some people think veterans should 'grow up' and not ask for such things) then you might stimulate sufficient participation and interest.

Yes, UK Cup for all ages to replace rankings, have dedicated National Sprints/Middles/Ultra-Longs with Open/Vets/Junior etc and extend the UK Cup to the whole year, but using B/S classes at the current long races would only decrease participation as the field would have to be split to both courses. For this to work the shorter courses need to be the premier course.

[seabird]

I generally support awk's view that we should move to more District and fewer Regional events. The event I attended this weekend, in an area comparatively, but not greatly, remote from major centres of population had just under 200 competitors on the Regional (rather than colour coded) courses. This made the results seem largely meaningless with so few competitors per class.

However it is quite clear to me that at this stage that awk, myself and other like-minded folk are in a minority on this one. The same club who staged the weekend's event attracted a little over half the number of age class competitors at their previous District Event.

Competitors seem to want Regional Events.

I am officiating soon at an event that will be a Regional Event, but had, as a contingency, also been planned as a District event providing Black and Purple courses - with scarcely any alterations to any course or the range of courses on offer, or indeed the facilities on offer. I would have preferred this latter option.

But I am confident the event will attract runners far in excess of the approximately 300 that the same club's District events normally attract at this time of year. This will be solely because of its Regional status. And yes the entry fees are higher!

[PeteL]

I note our (Gramp)Regional event entry fee is more than double than that for District and I don't expect the club will make much on the event either.

Costs will obviously differ given the wide range of circumstances under which events are organised, but we make a reasonable surplus/profit even on district events (or so I gather). Your post implies that yours make a loss. Is that right?[/quote]

Awk,

Haven't expressed myself very well - my point is that our club doesn't appear to make substantially more from Regional events than Districts which are generally much easier to put on.

I guess we are in the fortunate position up here of being able to use world-class areas for District events, so the issue of terrain quality is probably less significant here and so the attraction of Regional events is lessened.

I agree with your competition point, too. Whilst the Scottish Orienteering League (7 Regional Events) is an incentive to enter Regional Events, the numbers in many age classes are too few to give meaningful competition. I can't help noticing in the results that many age classes only have 5 or fewer competitors, who probably do as you do and search through other age classes running the same course to compare your results with.

For me, one of the competitive highlights of last year (sad, I know) was running the animation on routegadget for the Craig Mhic event near Oban where I was able to select a W40L runner of similar standard to me (M40S) and see exactly where the 'race' was 'won and lost'.

Perhaps this waffle is more to do with the lack of numbers in Scottish events (300-400 for a Regional)and doesn't apply to the UK as a whole but at the risk of complicating matters even further could a Ranking List be created that compares people on Regional courses rather than age classes?

[SeanC]

If you go to a regional event you can expect a high quality event in terms of organisation and terrain, wheras district events are more hit and miss. For example you could go to our district event at Westerham on the 25th March (also used for regional events) and have a fantastic area, large tarmaced car park next to a restaurant and stately home (woops, slight plug ). But we also hold district events at places like Joydens Wood which has a few flaws (about 3 billion bramble plants). I suspect many would forgo a few quid for the more consistent higher standard.

Perhaps district events could be split into two standards, or would we be back to where we started from?

[DM]

I'd really like the ranking lists to be useful, but they're not. Partly small fields distort the scores one way or another, and partly because many clubs just don't bother putting the scores in. I checked back and I am currently "waiting" for 6 events to go in. As one is from last March I suspect it never will.

So would I, we have to accept that some people choose to run up for most of the year then slaughter you at JK/BOC but in general you can see how you have done relative to most others in each race.

Regarding the non submission of results which you seem to be suffering from, here is an extract from the BOF website;

4. The organiser of a ranking event must submit the results in electronic form in the BOF file format as soon as possible after the event, and no later than 14 days after the event.
5. If a ranking event fails to meet this condition, the organising club will not be permitted to hold another ranking event until they can guarantee to meet the condition.
End of quote.

I don't know if BOF have ever enforced this, or even if they could, or would want to. In the few cases affecting us a reminder to the organiser normally works as the job of submitting the results can often be overlooked.

WCH demonstrated what can be done recently by getting the Sherbrook results submitted on the day of the event.

Would a simple reminder on here jog the organisers memories?

[DM]

I'd really like the ranking lists to be useful, but they're not. Partly small fields distort the scores one way or another, and partly because many clubs just don't bother putting the scores in. I checked back and I am currently "waiting" for 6 events to go in. As one is from last March I suspect it never will.

So would I, we have to accept that some people choose to run up for most of the year then slaughter you at JK/BOC but in general you can see how you have done relative to most others in each race.

Regarding the non submission of results which you seem to be suffering from, here is an extract from the BOF website;

4. The organiser of a ranking event must submit the results in electronic form in the BOF file format as soon as possible after the event, and no later than 14 days after the event.
5. If a ranking event fails to meet this condition, the organising club will not be permitted to hold another ranking event until they can guarantee to meet the condition.
End of quote.

I don't know if BOF have ever enforced this, or even if they could, or would want to. In the few cases affecting us a reminder to the organiser normally works as the job of submitting the results can often be overlooked.

WCH demonstrated what can be done recently by getting the Sherbrook results submitted on the day of the event.

Would a simple reminder on here jog the organisers memories?

[HOCOLITE]

Ref what you get at regional events we're getting waterproof maps at district events now. I think the cost is such that it is not suuficiently greater than buying map bags and it certainly saves the labour of bagging maps.

[rosco]

I would like to see regional events turned into Supercolour-coded races. At the moment there are millions of classes with no meaningful competition.

The main difference in courses would be a black course as the hardest level - black is a much cooler colour than brown so it would be something to aspire to. You might like to tell your friends "I'm a black badge!" (or not...)

The Supercolour Regional Races would be run on the best/new areas as (hopefully) at present with regional events. I'm sure this is why more people go to regional events at the moment.

I would then also like to see the idea of promotion and relegation introduced. I think this would really spice up the competition! I haven't quite thought through the details of how this would work, but it would mean that you really Earned the right to compete at whatever level rather than just picking what you fancied.

eg Say you won 3 blue courses in a season, you might have to run brown courses next season. I think it would make it more interesting for everyone. The winner would have a new incentive to compete at a higher level while everyone else on the blue would have a chance of winning now the "pot-hunter" had moved up a class. The racing would be much more exciting because it would be ability based and not just racing against the 2 people that are the same age as you.

Equally, if you finished in the bottom 3 in 3 blue events you would be relegated! This would mean you were justified in running down and would give you an incentive to try and improve - as soon as you are good enough your results on green will allow you to be promoted again.

What is it they say in football - if you're good enough you're old (or more relevant to orienteering - young) enough!