Where have all the young uns gone

[MikeWinter]

I was hoping to encourage my eldest son to start entering for JM1 courses once he can competently get round a few white courses, but from what's been said it sounds like he might well be the only entrant. Does that not make a mockery of the whole badge system, as I presume that as long as he gets round he'd get a Gold every time?

[awk]

Not necessarily Mike, as Hocolite has picked up on an almost worst case scenario. Round your club, things are a bit healthier - the last YH regional event (at Ogden in October) had 9 runners on JM1, and of course you can compare with other classes on the same course (I do). However, this does highlight something I've increasingly found, which is that if you want a good competition then you are often better off at district events than regionals, something that has yet to be fully appreciated, but which could have profound long term effects on the event structure.

[SeanC]

Graeme wrote

"and mine was absolutely the opposite. We had a nucleus of beginners, mainly with a running background (myself included), and a rather small number of "experienced juniors". The first group went to local events, met to go jogging etc (and within 5 years about 20 of us had gone from beginner to M21E!). The second group vanished to far-flung squad activities, wanted to attend high quality faraway events with their old friends and were seldom seen locally. "

I guess the experience orienteers at our uni werent aspiring squad members and happy to go anywhere. Plus we needed the beginners to fill the minibus or we would have had to find something else to do so not quite that selfless after all Maybe Graeme's example shows that a uni orienteering development officer might need to ensure that uni clubs dont become too elitist and potentially offputting to beginners?

Anyway, debates like these do suffer from a lack of reliable stats. I've posted these stats before (given to be by BOF a while ago), not participation but membership. Within these regions there were wide variations with some clubs increasing their junior membership and others seeing declines, but an overall steady decline between 97 and 04.

1997 Statistics for SE, YH and Scotland:

Total membership: 3269
Total under 20: 697 (21.32%)
Total 20-40: 996 (30.47%)
Total 40+: 1463 (44.75%)

2004 Statistics for SE, YH and Scotland:

Total membership: 2679
Total under 20: 529(19.75%)
Total 20-40: 597(22.28%)
Total 40+: 1500(55.99%)

Change between 2004 and 1997.

Total membership: -590
Under 20: -168
20-40: -399
40+: 37

[SeanC]

ps. There were increases in junior membership in the following clubs:*

GRAMP, INT, MOR, AIRE, DFOK, SO, ECHO, HALO, SN

* in 3 uk regions only, see above.

[David_Young]

One thing that my daughter (W12) has found motivating has been the badge scheme. She was pleased to get her bronze and is keen to try to get her silver. What I haven't figured out yet is how the ageless classes affect this. The British Orienteering web page on the badge scheme only mentions the age classes. I don't have an axe to grind about age vs ageless classes, but even if you can claim badges for the ageless classes (anyone know, can you?) it's still a problem as sometimes she's JW3 and sometimes she's W12A and surely you can't mix them??

And come to think of it, is there a rationale for retaining junior age classes for the MV national event this Sunday when most other major events we've been to recently seem to be ageless? Sorry if I've missed something - just wondering about it.

[Rookie]

certainly gold, but not sure about bronze and silver, ageless badges get sent out automatically for free (well they did a couple of years ago). There is a table somewhere that gives the appropriate ageless class for gold age runners, I think it might transfer the other badges as well. When I was younger I did like to get badges, especially before I was good enough to expect to get gold at every race so are worth keeping.

I wouldn't call Regional events major David, all nationals and championships should be age based even if that's just M/W open, junior and veteran (including regional champs but no-one ever seems to do that!) since a champion who's the best of that ability is a bit rubbish. Multi-day events tend to use age-based (eg. Lakes and Scottish(?)) but they are still classed as regional, see below)

---[slightly] Off topic---
I think that it should cost more to host a district event since everything is the same as a Regional now but you don't know how many people will turn up, so therefore entry fees are justified in being the same if not higher. It's also interesting that the WM League is at district events and not regional, makes the competition a lot better and just as good races. It just reinforces than regional events are totally pointless.

Why are all districts still colour coded? why are all Nationals classic length? Races that should be national such as the JOK Chase, JK sprint, FCC final and UK Cup final races/WOC selection are all registered as C3 (or national champs such as the Sprints and Middles listed as O2 and not O1).
A bit of variety is needed - national sprints, national middles and national classics - to make the sport more interesting and help increase participation

[Neil M35]

---[slightly] Off topic---
Why are all districts still colour coded? why are all Nationals classic length? Races that should be national such as the JOK Chase, JK sprint, FCC final and UK Cup final races/WOC selection are all registered as C3 (or national champs such as the Sprints and Middles listed as O2 and not O1).
A bit of variety is needed - national sprints, national middles and national classics - to make the sport more interesting and help increase participation

More or less what I said last November

Do away with regional events - these are generally meaningless and in many age groups do not really provide much of a competition. Bring the national events up to scratch** and make them into a coherent series. Also have a national series of middle races and a national series of sprint races. Do away with the current ranking list - have national rankings for sprint, middle and long based on the 3 series of national races only.

And below the national series level there would be lots and lots of District events, with Black courses if they are appropriate, overprinted maps and electronic punching.

** by which I mean don't allow National Events on substandard areas. Clubs/regions which in the past have struggled to find decent areas for long National Events may be better able to find good sprint and middle areas - eg Rowney Warren was a fantastic race last year.

I don't know whether or not this would increase participation, but the current fixture list only really works for the age classes that don't struggle for numbers ie M50 upwards.

[Gnitworp]

Do away with the current ranking list - have national rankings for sprint, middle and long based on the 3 series of national races only.

There are already lists for veterans based on national events and above, but many leading protagonists don't even clock up the requisite 5 events, even in the most populous 'Long' Classes.

The 'Short Course Masters Cup sop to political correctness' is even less 'populated' (in 2006 only 1 person in M35S and M60S did 5 events, and in M70S, the 'winner' only did 2 events!)

Lists using 4 counting events for Long Course competitors only might be more sensible and give a more realistic picture.

Having the 3 lists Neil advocates would surely only aggravate the insufficient-participation-by-leading-competitors factor

[LostOldTimer]

What is the 'Short course masters' cup please??

The 'Short Course Masters' Cup sop to political correctness' is even less 'populated' (in 2006 only 1 person in M35S and M60S did 5 events, and in M70S, the 'winner' only did 2 events!)

[Gnitworp]

Look on the British Orienteering website under 'Rankings'.

Your mystification is probably typical of the general level of interest in it.

[SeanC]

Linking with the original thread, what events do juniors prefer? Would they prefer to compete against a handful of others of their own age but be no 1 in their category and get a prize, or would they prefer to compete against (and beat) the oldies like me?

I wonder if part of the answer is more genuine team competitions for juniors like the YBT?

[Neil M35]

Do away with the current ranking list - have national rankings for sprint, middle and long based on the 3 series of national races only.

There are already lists for veterans based on national events and above, but many leading protagonists don't even clock up the requisite 5 events, even in the most populous 'Long' Classes.

The 'Short Course Masters Cup sop to political correctness' is even less 'populated' (in 2006 only 1 person in M35S and M60S did 5 events, and in M70S, the 'winner' only did 2 events!)

Having the 3 lists Neil advocates would surely only aggravate the insufficient-participation-by-leading-competitors factor

You can't compare a National middle or sprint race series with a series based on the B races of the present national setup. If there were 8 National Long events a year and these were the only events based on age groups and they were all high quality then the level of competition would be much higher than at present. The shorter races would be standalone races in their own right - along the lines of the British Middle and Sprint at Star Posts in 2005, or the Rowney Warren race this year. Fewer courses with more numbers - the Star Posts middle race had 130+ on the mens course, Rowney had similar numbers split across 4 mens courses. Did you enjoy these events, Gnitworp?

Maybe what I am proposing wouldn't suit everybody, but the status quo certainly doesn't suit the M21/M35/M40 age groups.

[MarkM]

I don't really care much about event status or age(less) classes as long as I get 6-9km of quality orienteering so I usually only run in class for selections and multi-days.
Going back a bit I have a sheet from somewhere entitled 'Juniors Go Ageless-update' It has a conversion chart for age/ageless/colour-coded classes and another weird bit explaining how you can convert age class badge times to several different new classes at various levels.
Also cloth badges aren't sent out automatically or I'd have loads, there's a bit in Focus saying who has claimed and how to claim

[PeteL]

---[slightly] Off topic---
I think that it should cost more to host a district event since everything is the same as a Regional now

Shurely shome mishtake?

I know I'm out of touch up Aberdeen-way but do you infer that it costs more to put on Districts than Regionals? Do your C4 events have portaloos and all that mullarky doon sooth these days? I guess that would bump up the entry fees and would be a high-risk cost when numbers aren't known but apart from maps (which hopefully will be print on-demand at events soon) where are the costs for C4s?

The 76 brave folk that turned out at our last District Event (described colourfully as 'like being strapped to an icerberg and sandblasted') certainly didn't get many luxuries and, of course, didn't have to pay for them either. A BOF member entry fee of £4.00 still meant we made a modest profit.

I note our (Gramp)Regional event entry fee is more than double than that for District and I don't expect the club will make much on the event either. Seems logical to me that we have more C4s and fewer C3s. Keep things simple and cheap and hopefully everyone's happy. With a full colour range up to Brown, there's still courses to suit everyone (even the elites can treat blue/browns as good middle distance training) and juniors get competition through the colour system. Last comment almost got back to the point of the thread - apologies for deviation...

[awk]

Totally agree Neil - your suggestions make eminent sense, and are vastly better than the current situation, where regional events are getting less and less competitive/worthwhile.

Going back a bit I have a sheet from somewhere entitled 'Juniors Go Ageless-update' It has a conversion chart for age/ageless/colour-coded classes

It's pretty straight forward, because the JM/JWs are numbered by their TD (technical difficulty).

Basically:

White = JM1/JW1 = M/W10B
Yellow = JM2/JW2 = M/W10A
Orange = JM3/JW3 = M/W12A
Lt Grn = JM4/JW4 = M/W14A
Green = JM5S/JW5S = W16A,
Blue = JM5M/JW5L = W18L, M16A
Brown = JM5L = M18L

and another weird bit explaining how you can convert age class badge times to several different new classes at various levels.

From memory, that was only a temporary thing to map standards from previous scheme on to new one. It's been changed since, so doesn't apply.

Also cloth badges aren't sent out automatically or I'd have loads, there's a bit in Focus saying who has claimed and how to claim

Gold certificates used to be sent out automatically to BOF members when the new scheme was started - cloth badges etc. could be ordered. I don't know whether this still happens.