GPS: Am I cheating?

[SeanC]

Dont worry Steve, deflation on gadgets is massive, those GPS watches will be a tenth of the price in a couple of years

5 years time: Dibbers with integrated GPS? Routes automatically uploaded into route gadget at download? Big screens displaying everyones routes for our entertainment? It would be a shame to ban GPS outright if it has potential for the development of the sport.

[SeanC]

The word has been unbanned

[Gross]

GPS isn't banned outrite. It is used in major relay's and was used at WOC last year.

There was much discussion in the build up to WOC 2001 in Tampere about the use of GPS tracking systems so the debate goes back some years.

[grubby]

Competitors who may use GPS, drugs or any other form of currently banned assistance are "cheating themselves". . . . . . . er. . . . no ! They're cheating me (and everybody else) from being that much further up the results, at whatever level. Do I care ? Well, yes actually. I'm too much into 'Old Gitness' now to win a Brown course, but I'd like to know that the ever-increasing number who beat me are there on merit alone.
Say it as it is ! They don't just cheat themselves.

[Carnage Head]

How about a poll on this issue? To be written by someone with more experience than me - perhaps a simple replication of the choices given in an earlier post on this topic, or an edited version? Sounds like it is a 'hot' issue deserving of one.

(For what it's worth, I reckon that whatever the result of a poll, in a few years time, the 'GPS built into SI card / EMIT card' situation will surely happen, and then there will probably be no reason for anyone to carry any other sort of GPS in a major race.)

[SeanC]

From what I read on this thread, GPS doesnt offer a significant competitive advantage during the race, but could be a significant competitive advantage in post race analysis of your routes. Improving your performance this way surely something to be encouraged. There was a post a while back about an newcomer to the sport wanting to reach expert standard, but their isnt always an obvious mechanism to do this unless you are a junior and are lucky enough to make it into a squad and get coaching. Well here's part of the answer, get your routes on route gadget plotted accurately using GPS and analyse them with your splits and against other's performance. Plus these GPS gadget kings are helping to drive development in RouteGadget, so surely to be encouraged?

If Paul Frost wants to turn up at a DFOK local or colour coded event and use his GPS, I cant imagine anyone would care. In fact I would like him to use it, as it would make him and others more likely to compete and turn up to our events! The only problem might be at a more serious event. If that colour coded event was a compass sport cup for example, and his club went through on a narrow victory at the expense of another club, and people thought that the GPS was the difference, there could be some interesting arguments.

How about rule c (see original post) plus "can be banned for specific events at the discretion of the controller"? So long as this doesnt appear as a comment in final details

[Adventure Racer]

So long as this doesnt appear as a comment in final details

What's the map symbol for "No GPS" then?

[SeanC]

I mean in the event flyer rather than the final details.

[RobL]

I appear to be in a minority of one here

No you're not. I've got one and still think that they should be banned. The use of GPS simply leads to a situation of ambiguity.

[Adventure Racer]

I mean in the event flyer rather than the final details.

Is that so you can avoid entering events which don't allow the use of GPS?

[SeanC]

OK, that's a fair point Adventure Racer, event organisers will be under pressure to allow them or GPS users might go elsewhere.

Looking at the rule again, the relevant rule says

"The use of any artifical navigational aid other than a compass is prohibited."

To me this implies use in a race. It doesnt say:

"The carrying of an artifical navigational aid (for the purpose of post race route analysis) is prohibited", so I think that rule c would work and doesnt even need to be made an official rule. Competitors are trusted to carry whistles and not to go into out of bounds areas, so why not trust them to use their GPS appropriately?

Now to waffle on about why I think it should be encouraged.....

I think route gadget is a great advance, but it suffers from two key limitations:

a) The routes have to be entered by the competitor - this means that you might have to wait a few days for everyone who's going to to enter their routes when the interest in the event will have wained. Plus only a minority enter their routes (though this might change as it catches on).
b) Route gadget is used by individuals analysing routes on their own away from the event. Car park discussion of routes is our main excuse for socialising and should be encouraged as our sport can be a bit antisocial at times.

In the future all this technology could be joined up. An integrated SI unit and GPS logs times and routes. At download routes automatically gets input into route gadget. The competitor receives split times and a new map with their route plotted on. Not only is this a great aid to car park discussions, but its a brilliant way for newcomers to improve their performance, as they can find out where they really went whilst the event is still in their mind. When the competitors get home, route gadget will have all competitors routes immediately, not just a few. Or the organisers could be generous and allow a spare laptop for this at the event for more post race analysis.

The thing is I'm willing to bet that SI/emit manufacturers are much more likely to make an integrated GPS version if people are actually using GPS for route logging.

And as a final benefit of all this, dear to Nopesport hq's hearts I know:

The SI unit would no longer be an SI unit, but a SI/GPS unit. This means it could be renamed from [that name that we are now allowed to use but really shouldn't use] to something less offensive.

[Adventure Racer]

Competitors are trusted to carry whistles and not to go into out of bounds areas, so why not trust them to use their GPS appropriately?

...
In the future all this technology could be joined up. An integrated SI unit and GPS logs times and routes. At download routes automatically gets input into route gadget. The competitor receives split times and a new map with their route plotted on. Not only is this a great aid to car park discussions, but its a brilliant way for newcomers to improve their performance, as they can find out where they really went whilst the event is still in their mind.

Not only that, but it also removes the need to trust people not to go into OOB areas or cross fences they're not supposed to, which is I imagine rather more of an issue than cheating using GPS ever would be (eg the infamous "uncrossable wall" in the Lincoln city race).

The SI unit would no longer be an SI unit, but a SI/GPS unit. This means it could be renamed from [that name that we are now allowed to use but really shouldn't use] to something less offensive.

Only if you no longer had to dib it to record your visit to a control.

[Jagge]

I think the best way to cheat with current Forerunner models is if one person runs the course with it and takes splits / saves waypoint at each control. At finish he hands the unit (or recorded data) over to a friend who is starting later. He uses the route map & waypoints to navigate or he runs as he normally does, but if he is uncertain he checks the right direction from the unit screen.

[Gnitworp]

Only if you no longer had to dib it to record your visit to a control.

Maybe something a little more succinct like:

'Insert your card in the electronic recording device'.

[jondub]

I use a Forerunner 201 at most events, but only for tracking my route. I can't say that I ever look at it during an event (except as a stop watch), and it has a number of problems. It isn't very accurate, and frequently loses the GPS signal when running in trees. There is no way that it could ever be faster to use this rather than traditional navigation. Having said that, the ability to download the route is very valuable for post race analysis. It is interesting to note that it isn't always the way that I 'thought' that I had gone.

I don't think banning these units is really practical, the more modern ones look exactly like a watch or heart rate monitor, and start crews would have to be trained to inspect all watches to determine what features they have. Attempts at banning technology are always a bit problematic. I believe that in the US they bought in a rule saying that headlights had to be 20W or less. The only problem was that technology moved on and extremely bright HiD lights are now available, and are legal as they are only rated at 10-12W.

If the units gave a clear competitive advantage or might cause the sport to change, there may be an argument for a ban, but not right now.