GPS: Am I cheating?

[Adventure Racer]

Good luck on the contouring, if I can get the same model of HRM to register a climb of 100m of a bike in the garage when it's strapped to the handlebars then I am certainly not going to look use it for anything but recording HR and time. Understanding how these things work will tell you they have errors, Polar make a point of saying don't rely on them in critical situations. They work on pressure so if you have a change in the weather during the time you are exercising/running etc you will get wrong altitude figures.

However they are precise enough for contouring legs in MMs and ARs (where the use is permitted). The S710 gives 1m precision, and having used it for many years and checked against other maps etc., that sort of precision is actually consistent and useful - given that where I live I can do 500m+ of height in a lunchtime run I pay a lot of attention to altitude, and find climb rate against HR a very useful gauge of fitness.

Your garage climb is likely as not down to varying temperature having come off your wrist onto the bike. I see similar things when using mine on indoor trainers (and also when flatwater kayaking with the watch strapped to the boat). You will also in my experience generally see a drop in altitude compared to the real world over the first 15 miunutes of use when going out running. However when in steady state during an event, the altitude readings are actually quite consistent. Whether it would be useful for orienteering is another matter (maybe over a 1km contouring leg!)

[ifor]

Alitmeters loging total climb are bad when you are not going up or down. I managed 50m climb on the Western-super-mere 5 mile prom run. All the measurment jiter just adds up unless they filter it. If you are actualy going up or down at any rate then this is not an issue. I also where my normal watch which has a altimeter when doing normal O but I don't have it on the altimeter... If I want an altimeter I switch to a different watch which I find easier to use, but thats only where it is alowed, and then I only tend to use it when the cloud comes down...

Ifor

[Red Adder]

I've a Foretrex 201 - best accuracy it claims / I've achieved is around 5m and it has proved to be sufficiently accurate when base mapping in conjunction with the Fresh Logic /Getmapping aerial photos. Running on a map I produced based on these sources produced a track that was close to but not entirely in accord with the course I followed. Of interest to check the route but not up to it as a serious navigation aid.

That said the rules on the matter are quite clear. To use GPS without declaring yourself non-comp in any event contravenes the rules whether you gain an advantage or not.

[Adventure Racer]

That said the rules on the matter are quite clear. To use GPS without declaring yourself non-comp in any event contravenes the rules whether you gain an advantage or not.

The debate here though appears to be about the meaning of the word "use". Is anybody seriously suggesting you should be allowed to consult one (or an altimeter) during your run rather than simply using it to log, whether or not there is an advantage?

[Spookster]

There are various other rules in orienteering where we trust the competitor to comply, and I think this is another one. In other words, it should be ok to carry a GPS device, but you are trusted not to use it for navigation (whether distance counting or altitude checking).

p.s. some events make carrying of GPS devices mandatory (World Champs, Tio, etc), but of course that's for the benefit of spectators and TV, rather than the competitor.

[PorkyFatBoy]

And finding a pit/depression 400m from a hill in a flat featureless forest..... that's real orienteering is it????

You've not been to East Anglia then RJ?

Speaking (in true Nope style) from a position of ignorance on GPS systems, I'm not sure that the time saved by using one of these would be of real "result changing" benefit at the elite level, or even at my plodding speed. Maybe it could show the disctance better than your pace counting for finding controls like those mentioned above, but do they really work that well in the dense pine forests?

[RJ]

And finding a pit/depression 400m from a hill in a flat featureless forest..... that's real orienteering is it????

You've not been to East Anglia then RJ?

Fortunately EA have a few really interesting and challenging areas that provide 'real' orienteering, and they are well worth the visit.... and the long trek across country!

But featureless flat forests I leave to 'Bing-O' addicts for Wednesday night alternatives to Mecca!

[Steve]

There is a tendency to overuse technology just because we can. How many people do you see on their commuter journeys with the sat-nav on!

I feel there is a kind of sixth sense associated with orienteering, to do with knowing you are and where the control is, and isn't this sixth sense going to get suppressed by using technology to assist in navigation.

Your sat-nav users will have no idea where they are when their sat-nav fails and they take a wrong turning - they can't read a map, probably don't even have one. If we become reliant on technology to tell us, for example, how far we've run, then we're going to lose the ability to do it intuitively.

Do I misunderstand the spirit of orienteering? Isn't it more than an all out attempt to beat your rivals by any means possible, except cheating, but allowing yourself a strict mis-interpretation of the rules when it's convenient.

Tell me if I'm being old fashioned.

[Paul Frost]

Steve, you misunderstand the use of GPS in orienteering. There is no push for them to be made legal to use for navigational purposes.

I would like to think that all of those who want to carry a GPS unit whilst orienteering only want to use it to record their route for later analysis.

I certainly do not want it to be used as an aid to navigation, and don't believe it can be used to any great effect.

There seems to be a sort of paranoia developing about this subject, and the assumption that we must be cheats or why else would we carry a GPS. Someone mentioned that:

I certainly wouldn't want to be caught with one myself

as if it was already a crime. Another one said:

I once accidentally turned up at a start with an altimeter watch. It never occured to me that it was illegal..

It is not illegal to wear a watch with an altimeter in it, to use it as a navigational aid is. But as several people have mentioned, they are not very useful/accurate anyway.

[Steve]

Paul, thanks for your comments. I can see the benefit for analysing routes later.

There seems to be a sort of paranoia developing about this subject

While I'm by no means a luddite I do think we have a tendency to be over-reliant on technology.

There is no push for them to be made legal to use for navigational purposes.

Maybe, but Simon wants to know whether it's ok to use his GPS to determine distance, essentially a relative position, as opposed to an absolute position.

The rule makers were probably unaware of this contingency when writing the rules, and maybe it can be argued in legal style that the current wording does not specifically prohibit such usage, but my point is that it goes absolutely against the spirit of the sport - relaince ones own abilities and judgement etc.

[Mrs H]

Co-incidentally s0meone has just sent me the following piece of information

Favourite Bit Of Kit: The spirit level attachment to my Silva 6 Spectra compass. Great for accurate contouring.

How does that fit into the grand scheme of things then?

[Steve]

Life ban, I should think

[Paul Frost]

Steve, I didn't think Simon was asking if it was ok for him to use it, but that the rules need to be clear.

The rules already seem to cover it in that they say that nothing other than a map and compass are to be used for navigation. We just need to trust people to comply. We already leave lots of areas to trust in orienteering, so nothing new there.

I suspect that if someone tried to use a GPS or altimeter to cheat that they probably wouldn't bother a second time.

[Gross]

The rule makers were probably unaware of this contingency when writing the rules, and maybe it can be argued in legal style that the current wording does not specifically prohibit such usage, but my point is that it goes absolutely against the spirit of the sport - relaince ones own abilities and judgement etc.

I just got my copy of the new IOF 2007 rules through the post so you have to assume the IOF were aware of GPS technology when the rules were written.

Rule 21.3 states; During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.

So using a GPS is against the rules.

[Steve]

During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.

So the person using a spirit level for contouring is breaking the rules!

Not sure how this spirit level thing works: do you attach one to your shoes or to the arms of your glasses or something?