The only possible benefit of using a gps in competition seems to be measuring the distance run. This works very well in straight lines, but how often do we run in a straight line for any great distance without any obvious landmarks? If we did, it probably means the planning was a bit lacking.
So when we look at leg on the map it usually involves dodging around obstacles, contouring round a hill etc. so we make a calculated guess at the distance. The gps now tells us accurately that we have travelled the guessed distance. Is this much better than guessing (or pace counting) that we have travelled the guessed distance? Or is looking at the map and deciding that the features you can see match the map a better guide?
The other point that has been made on another thread and in my experience, is that often the gps track doesn't show me going to a control marked on the map. This is probably a combination of gps location error and mapping error but it shows that neither are perfect.
My navigational skills are far from perfect, I can usually manage to pace count, follow a bearing or read the contours, but often only manage 2 at any one time, so trying to add another part to the navigation process would just confuse me more.
Anyone needing the assistance that a gps could offer is unlikely to be very competitive in the first place.
GPS: Am I cheating?
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
I don't know what the current devices are capable of, but is it not possible that one could be designed to say what bearing you have travelled on since you last were at a control (assuming that you pressed a button on the device when you were last at a control). The device would calculate this from your current GPS compared to previous GPS. And you could also design it to show the straight line distance between your current position and the position you were in at the last control.
Then you would have bearing and distance.
Then you would have bearing and distance.
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I am sure that on some units this is possible, but it all takes time.
I am sure we are all aware of lots of instances where experienced orienteers miss-punch because they did not check the control descriptions for the control number. When I have bought this up with them, the most common answer is along the lines of "I don't waste time looking at them". They trust their map reading skill that they are in the right place and just punch the unit found there. Sometimes they get it wrong!
If they can't find the time to look at the control descriptions what chance is there of them scrolling through menus to calculate bearing, distance etc.
I am sure we are all aware of lots of instances where experienced orienteers miss-punch because they did not check the control descriptions for the control number. When I have bought this up with them, the most common answer is along the lines of "I don't waste time looking at them". They trust their map reading skill that they are in the right place and just punch the unit found there. Sometimes they get it wrong!
If they can't find the time to look at the control descriptions what chance is there of them scrolling through menus to calculate bearing, distance etc.
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Paul Frost wrote:The only possible benefit of using a gps in competition seems to be measuring the distance run.
So when we look at leg on the map it usually involves dodging around obstacles, contouring round a hill etc.
So what about units that tell you your height, that be be useful when contouring round hills, for example....
Anyone needing the assistance that a gps could offer is unlikely to be very competitive in the first place.
So it's OK to cheat, as long as you are crap??? WTF?
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Altitude data via gps is not that accurate.
The many watches with altimeters in are much more accurate, but keeping an eye on it whilst running through the trees makes it more likely that you get your eye poked out by a branch.
The many watches with altimeters in are much more accurate, but keeping an eye on it whilst running through the trees makes it more likely that you get your eye poked out by a branch.
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I'm a bit dubious about the assertion that it wouldn't be of help to elite orienteers.
It sounds like it would allow the deployment of the "blast and ask" technique on 2 km legs in intricate Scandi pathless train.
A very fast way of orienteering, but somewhat risky on very technical terrain.
It sounds like it would allow the deployment of the "blast and ask" technique on 2 km legs in intricate Scandi pathless train.
A very fast way of orienteering, but somewhat risky on very technical terrain.
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Guest88, I don't understand your statement.
You seem to be saying that it would be useful on a 2km leg etc. then, that this is "risky". The point being?
You seem to be saying that it would be useful on a 2km leg etc. then, that this is "risky". The point being?
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FatBoy wrote: I don't know if perhaps GPS manafacturers would feel that there is sufficient market in a GPS device which just logs where you've been? Perhaps there already is such a device commercially available? One of these would seem to stop the argument.
This was what the original argument was stating. Both these devices log where you have been without giving you grid references. And to input a route you need a computer which would be pretty noticeable at a start.
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The legitimate advantage here seems to be tracking (either post-event) or sent back to some commentator via SMS/Radio whatever...
The cheating element seems to be using the knowledge of position either absolute or relative to last control.
So... if it's got a display it seems it is likely to be illegal since it is giving you information that you would not have if you were GPS less.
Presumeably covering up the display removes this advantage.
If GPS were made legal then it changes the whole sport since it makes relocation much easier... it would be easy to make a gadget that you press a button at a control (or start), type in straight line distance and bearing to next control and then the device constantly reads out distance and bearing to destination...
I was thinking about buying one... any recommendations? (Obviously coverage under trees is important)
The cheating element seems to be using the knowledge of position either absolute or relative to last control.
So... if it's got a display it seems it is likely to be illegal since it is giving you information that you would not have if you were GPS less.
Presumeably covering up the display removes this advantage.
If GPS were made legal then it changes the whole sport since it makes relocation much easier... it would be easy to make a gadget that you press a button at a control (or start), type in straight line distance and bearing to next control and then the device constantly reads out distance and bearing to destination...
I was thinking about buying one... any recommendations? (Obviously coverage under trees is important)
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The main reason that this seems CURRENTLY to be n issue is the inherant honesty of many. Surely if you are in doubt about taking such a device no-one can complain if you carry it buried in your clothing.
I once accidentally turned up at s start with an altimeter watch. It never occured to me that it was illegal, and yes the map was so awful that I did use it to estimate how many index contours I had climbed.
However I wore it when controlling in Docharn, and interestingly it was useless for contouring along the hillside, not because it couldn't do it, but because the features on the map were designed to be read - the contours did not in reality keep at the same level - they do however give a very good impression of the ground to the runner.
I once accidentally turned up at s start with an altimeter watch. It never occured to me that it was illegal, and yes the map was so awful that I did use it to estimate how many index contours I had climbed.
However I wore it when controlling in Docharn, and interestingly it was useless for contouring along the hillside, not because it couldn't do it, but because the features on the map were designed to be read - the contours did not in reality keep at the same level - they do however give a very good impression of the ground to the runner.
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FromTheGrassyKnoll wrote:I was thinking about buying one... any recommendations? (Obviously coverage under trees is important)
The Garmin units mentioned, Edge/Forerunner 205/305, are to my knowledge the only units that use a "High-Sensitivity SiRFstarIII™ architecture". As I understand it, this acquires, holds and re-acquires satellites faster than most units. So in forest conditions the older units loose coverage and then spend ages finding a satellite again.
My experience of using both types is that the new ones are significantly better in the forest, with the old ones as good as useless for our purposes.
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Paul> I meant that without a GPS device it would be too risky, but if you have a GPS device then that would take out a large part of the risk element, as you would know from the GPS roughly where you are on the map relative to the last control and make the relocation far easier.
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GPS
The original poster asked whether he was cheating. I suggest that to carry any GPS or altimeter type device around a course with you lays you wide open to the allegation of cheating.
I certainly wouldn't want to be caught with one myself, whether for use during or after the race.
Perhaps Rules Group will need to look at the wording of the relevant rule.
I certainly wouldn't want to be caught with one myself, whether for use during or after the race.
Perhaps Rules Group will need to look at the wording of the relevant rule.
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FatBoy wrote:Many Adventure Races have rules such as this: (courtesy of Open Adventure this one)
GPS units are not referred to during an event (e.g. no wrist or handlebar mounts). They can be used for route logging if desired.
Then again GPS is actually allowed at Polaris (MTB mountain marathon equivalent), and that's something I'm quite comfortable with. Plenty of people use them, but AFAIK none of the top people do - I'd be very surprised if anybody has got in the top 10 with one. That's because anybody that good should know where they are all the time, and it doesn't help with map interpretation or route choice - the time you waste working it is just time wasted.
I suspect the same theory could be applied to orienteering - if you're good enough for it to really matter, then it's not any use to you. Having digested the arguments, I'm actually still struggling to work out how a GPS unit would actually help you enough to be worth the amount of time needed to mess around with it during an event. After all, even to use it for a bearing you'd have to first work out the bearing from the map, rather than simply align the map, similarly you'd have to actually measure the distance on the map to use that function, and assume the mapper actually measured distances accurately and that you were running in a straight line. I think the answer is that it would prevent a bad run turning into an awful run, but wouldn't help you to have a good run.
I have to admit that my daily wear watch is a Polar S710, which has an HRM and altimeter built in. However whilst I do turn it on to record my runs, I've never once looked at the display during an event (you can set it so altitude isn't displayed). Arguably it would be useful for contouring legs, but I've avoided temptation, and anyway I suspect over reliance on it would actually hinder rather than help as you'd end up missing lots of more important information from the terrain.
Oh, and I have a bike computer on my bike which I take care to have calibrated, but whilst it's really useful for Trailquest (on OS maps) I can't actually remember looking at it once during any recent MTBO event.
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Adventure Racer wrote:I have to admit that my daily wear watch is a Polar S710, which has an HRM and altimeter built in. However whilst I do turn it on to record my runs, I've never once looked at the display during an event (you can set it so altitude isn't displayed). Arguably it would be useful for contouring legs, but I've avoided temptation, and anyway I suspect over reliance on it would actually hinder rather than help as you'd end up missing lots of more important information from the terrain.
Good luck on the contouring, if I can get the same model of HRM to register a climb of 100m of a bike in the garage when it's strapped to the handlebars then I am certainly not going to look use it for anything but recording HR and time. Understanding how these things work will tell you they have errors, Polar make a point of saying don't rely on them in critical situations. They work on pressure so if you have a change in the weather during the time you are exercising/running etc you will get wrong altitude figures.
GPS works on triangulation off three satellites. Looking at other posts it still lacks the accuracy needed. The consensus seems to be that if you're good you won't benefit much and if you are not so good, you could benefit but only if you are skilfull and quick at using it which would need practice (time better spent improving other skills like reading features etc in my opinion).
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