Orienteering Events Should Return a Surplus. Discuss.

[sgb]

Having problems with my computer so I thought I'd raise some discussion instead. An essay title for y'all:

Orienteering Events Should Return a Surplus. Discuss


In case anybody is suffering from a mental block, a few arguments in favour. First, clubs should always aim to make a profit to allow for unforeseen costs unless they are to risk making a loss on events. Second, money raised from the successful organisation of events can be funnelled towards junior development, without which the sport is unlikely to prevail. There are more arguments; these can be seen as starters.

On the other hand, it could be argued that there is no reason for orienteers to subsidise somebody else's kids, or that an important aspect of development is actually subsidising events in order that the sport is accessible for newcomers.

The issues of whether orienteering is too expensive per se, whether National events deserve their higher entry fees and how costs compare to adventure racing / taking your kids to play on the swings in the local park have been discussed here before. What I'm curious about is whether orienteers think that events should return a surplus, and if so what this surplus should cover; or be subsidised, in which case from where the subsidy should come.

[graeme]

Remembering that "we are all BOF", the BOF levy is nothing other than event profit going back into orienteering.

[Jon Brooke]

Personally, I think that events should be costed to break even, but with the hope that a bit of markeing effort might bring in more than the expected numbers (including newbies) and turn a small profit.

This is partly based on the idea that it would be better to have 200 competitors contributing 50p each to club funds than to have 100 contributing a pound each.

I do think though that we are not always terribly good at minimising costs or maximising revenue from sources other than the basic entry fee.

I could spend a bit of time dwelling on the minimising costs bit, but that might be construed as mainly critical, so I'll give one positive example of the maximising profit route:

My previous club, TVOC, run a hill race in conjunction with their winter Wendover Woods event. This has built up to quite a well regarded and well attended event for off road runners. Because it is held in conjunction with the O event in the same woods a lot of the organisation on the day is shared between the events, but with profits ploughed back into the O club

[Mrs H.]

Err.... where will the money come to subsidise events?

The answer is that some events should make a profit to finance development - whether that be junior coaching/new mapping/technology/publicity.......

......and also to subside other event where a financial loss might be made but long term gains might be made.

[sgb]

Err.... where will the money come to subsidise events?

I had considered suggesting that all orienteers should collect notes from the plentiful money trees in many orienteering forests, but thought such such obvious bias might affect people's thoughts! Indeed, as Jon Brooke points out, there may well be times when it is possible to find some form of subsidy. Exactly where one should find it is obviously a harder question, but perhaps one which deserves to be asked.

[SeanC]

Its an interesting question. The way it seems to me there are two basic problems with fundraising.

1) The impression I get is that, if the money is in the form of a grant from a government or non-government organisation the money often comes with strings attached which might restrict its usefulness, plus applying for the grant takes volunteer time.

2) Putting on special events for runners/private companies etc requires orienteers to volunteer additional time.

In contrast money raised through event fees is easy to collect and can be spent as the club sees fit. That said it would be interesting to hear of more examples of grants where the the strings arent too tight, or where fundraising was easy and successful.

My wife's hockey club are quite good at fundraising. Because they have a club house and a bar, they can put on disco's, slave auctions, car boot sales, meals etc. Of course the money's all coming from within the club, but they are having a good time along the way.

[gg]

Is there anything to stop an individual or group putting on an event for profit for themselves? Would encourage a high level of organisation to attract people and may increase diversity of competitions

[Adventure Racer]

None at all - free market and all that. If they can make enough money to make it all worthwhile then good luck to them. I imagine it would be hard to make enough money to cover people's wages were you actually paying them to do things for you rather than relying on volunteers though.

[AndyO]

Events should be run at a profit, for the reasons Mrs H states. Organisers need to have a clear idea of the likely costs for putting on the event when establishing entry fees, and will need a "safety margin" against unforeseen extras, but remember that we are not in this to make money, but to enjoy and develop our sport. Junior coaching can be expensive if you count the cost of transport and accommodation for training weekends etc, and while parents do make a contribution, our club certainly supports these trips financially. Mapping has to be regularly updated and the opportunity for new areas researched. Clubs should also be building up funds to replace equipment at the end of its life (SI or Emit controls, etc).

There are many sources of additional funding available for clubs to tap into in addition to membership fees and entries, but most "external" funding comes with strings attached (reasonably) such as completing an application stipulating how much you need, what you need it for, and what the benefits will be. This can be particularly useful for mapping, equipment purchases, etc.

[Snail]

It depends on both how you define "surplus" and the financial situation of the organising club/body.

If "surplus" means whats left after already deducting mapping costs, depreciation on e-kit, advertising the event, levies etc, then not necessarily.

A club with sufficient assets to be able to risk something going wrong (eg paying for a professional map but then having to cancel the event) can plan to break even. If it isn't in this position then it probably needs to build up a cushion and should budget for a surplus. And even then it can still decide to run some events, eg for juniors or schools, at a loss if it can make that up (and more) with a surplus on others.

[Adventure Racer]

Even if in theory you can afford to plan to break even, the very circumstances you describe (losing money after cancelling an event) mean this isn't a workable situation in the long term (unless of course you have other outside sources of income to cover this). Otherwise whilst you might have sufficient funds to cover the loss of money on one occasion, if you continue to follow this principle eventually the money runs out!

Of course the reality of the situation is that for most clubs some events are expected to run at a loss, so it's only prudent to plan to make money on others. That's ignoring the fact that I imagine most event budgets don't include provision for all hidden items of club expenditure.

[Mrs H.]

it could be argued that there is no reason for orienteers to subsidise somebody else's kids,.

I'm disappointed no one had picked this up as I would be interested to know whether anyone does find this irritating. I was rather hoping for a bit of a dust up.

gg said

Is there anything to stop an individual or group putting on an event for profit for themselves?

I suspect the problem with this might be if some voluntary input was also required - people might resent working for nothing to make other people a profit. ( well I would anyway)

[Adventure Racer]

I suspect the problem with this might be if some voluntary input was also required - people might resent working for nothing to make other people a profit. ( well I would anyway)

Depends whether that's the only way for an event to take place. Certainly some on here who I presume have done just that.

[SeanC]

I can see how paying the top organisers and planners for the big events might be acceptable in the current structure (does this happen? I rarely leave Kent). If the best organisers and planners were paid, they might earn enough to give up their day jobs and this might help take the pressure off everyone for the big events.

Orienteering events run entirely by private companies for profit? I think there are many easier ways to make money

[graeme]

I suspect the problem with this might be if some voluntary input was also required - people might resent working for nothing to make other people a profit. ( well I would anyway)

Unless they were going to spend it on their kids presumably? ...

I'm always confused about what a "profit" is, but I do know my volunteer time raises money which keeps mappers, BOF officials, field-owners and toilet delivery men in a living. And I have no problem with that.