British Middle and Sprint Championships - who's it for?

[tim sleepless]

I'm not sure that I would want championships for all disciplines within the same multiday period (if that it what is being suggested). I thought that a separate weekend for sprints and middle distance worked well this year. The format might need a rethink to get the balance between providing an elite competition and opening up and popularising the disciplines for all comers.

Reasons for that are that it would be lot of work for one region to take on and also that most regions can find reasonable sprint and middle distance venues but not all have extensive options for good classic distance terrain.

Mark

I'm a little undecided about whether a single multiday is best or not.

From a pro perspective: Don't all regions get a punt at putting on the classic BOC anyway? so if they can find terrain for that, adding a sprint and midde would be relatively easy. And in the grander scheme of things, one could argue that one big weekend takes less work to organise than two smaller ones, and that the economics work better (for both competitors and organisers). It would be the same work as a JK I guess.

One argument I'd make against it is that it's can be pretty physically demanding to run 3 or 4 events in a weekend for us older types. I ended up not doing the classics for the NAOC and Canadian champs (and there were no real relay events then either..

[EddieH]

Having a separate weekend for sprint and middle seems good for Britain for 2 reasons.

1 is organisational - if you make the load too big, many regions will simply refuse to do it.

2 is terrain related - the quoted countries seem to be summer events - summer is NOT suited in Britain for a classic because of vegetation. Maybe it isn't for middle either but there is much more chance, and it's perfect for sprint.

Regarding BOF champs for all in all disciplines I note that most entries seem to be taking it for granted that that is what we want now - it seems to me to be simple enough to add it to the planned Elite only champs.

[Axel]

Eddies hit the nail on the head. The British Sprint and Middle Champs are in April 2007 thats a whole 5 months away. The challenge is for BO representatives to pull their finger out and make the decisions?

Is this an all encompassing champs?

If so these are the classes that will be run?

Hey whats difficult about that???

Oh yes at the same time the BO events committee should look at what they have crammed in to the months Apr to Jun 07. Looking at the "not official aide memoir" sent out by BO its all the champs that we have including the FFC and UK Cup races. Can anybody seriously say this is good for British Orienteeering. Not only is it the expence of it all, but how about the travel time, work commitments and family management, especially if your a parent that has non orienteers in the family. Taking out the months of Jul and Aug for the JWOC, World Champs, World Cup, WMOC races and the main Multi day events. How about utilising the other 6/7 months of the year and spreading the pain.

[NeilC]

Eddies hit the nail on the head. The British Sprint and Middle Champs are in April 2007 thats a whole 5 months away. The challenge is for BO representatives to pull their finger out and make the decisions?

Is this an all encompassing champs?

If so these are the classes that will be run?

Hey whats difficult about that???

Nothing at all difficult about that, and you will be pleased to know that a decision has been made:
The BEOC sprint and middle champs next year will not be an all encompassing championship (didn't I say that earlier?).

I suspect the problem is that this isn't the decision you wanted. Although BOF representatives may have nothing better to do with their time, they welcome constructive proposals. Why not have a go at writing an event guideline (along the lines of Guideline D http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/documents/rules/regsguid2p0.pdf
and sending it either to me or your association - or indeed posting it here for others to comment on.

[roadrunner]

Eddies hit the nail on the head. The British Sprint and Middle Champs are in April 2007 thats a whole 5 months away. The challenge is for BO representatives to pull their finger out and make the decisions?

Is this an all encompassing champs?

If so these are the classes that will be run?

Hey whats difficult about that???

Nothing at all difficult about that, and you will be pleased to know that a decision has been made:
The BEOC long and middle champs next year will not be an all encompassing championship (didn't I say that earlier?).

I'm confused! Are you saying that the Sprint Champs is open to all, the Middle Champs is elite only, and there are separate long/classic champs for elites and the rest?!

I don't personally mind whether the elites have separate championships or not, though I think the atmosphere would be improved by having one set of champs for all, but at least I think the non-elites (who are the vast majority) should have a chance to run in these other disciplines.

[Axel]

Neil,

You're right, you did say before it was an elite only Champs and I perfectly understood you, however some people still seem confused and the reason why is that Bo advertises this on the fixtures page as the British Sprint and Middle Distance Champs not Elite Championships as you state. It's not until you open the site that it explains its the Elite only Champs.

So I'll say it again the majority of joe public orienteers are not catered for in a Brit Champs. Us who pay our dues year in year out and finance BO are once more ignored. Is this sport just for the elitists and are we thought of as second class and not worthy of a championships in these oing catergories?

As I said before we are more than likely the only Oing Country that has a Champs that is not open to its long suffering members.

Will I attend the event, well if it was an official British Champs for all members of BO then I would be one of the first to enter. However it seems a mighty long way to go just to be classed as a supporting act.

What is clear to me BO is not forward thinking, has little or no thought for its members and takes years to make a decision, which in most cases is to late. With the outcome its lost another batch of members to some other pass time or sport.

5 months is a long time, is anyone in BO a radical forward thinker or have you all hibernated for the Winter??

[ratleikur]

Great post Axel - absolutely spot on. But I would say the problem isn't just with the shorter distances. Since both JK Day 2 and BEOC classic are selection only (based purely on UK cup races), that usually leaves only one, if any, classic distance races a year (Burbage being an exception this year) open to those who can't or don't want to compete in the bulk of the UK cup, ie to be allowed to run a classic distance race, you have to run a load of short/sprint races first- something I for one am not prepared to do. At one fell swoop a whole discipline of orienteering has been closed to non-elites (or more specifically, non-UK cup competitors) even those who could perform at a competitive level at that distance.

I'v been an orienteer for 25yrs but over the last few years have felt that the middle ground of orienteering has been completely devalued and ignored, with all of BOF's efforts focussed on the elite at one extreme and attracting newcomers at the other. What BOF seem to be forgetting is that the middle ground as well as encompassing the bulk of its members also provides the majority of the volunteers who keep the sport going.

[PMG]

The solution is simple folks.

If you want a British Middle Champs for everyone then lobby your Association Rules Group Reps to take this to the next National meeting.

Some history: BEOC Middle when it first started was with BEOC Long, but with the Long now usually going with the British Senior and Junior Champs, the BEOC Middle has become separated and in trying to give a good value weekend has become paired with another. event.

And , as for the middle ground - many of the changes you suggest may have been made if volunteers had come forward for the Senior Competitions Group which would have given middle ground the strength of lobby you are commenting on. If interested email me and I will pass your interest on to the person who is again trying to get it going.

Peter G
(p.m.g@btinternet.com)

[NeilC]

Since both JK Day 2 and BEOC classic are selection only (based purely on UK cup races), that usually leaves only one, if any, classic distance races a year (Burbage being an exception this year) open to those who can't or don't want to compete in the bulk of the UK cup

Yes...but when was the last time that you had your entry for M21E turned down? Certainly at the last two BEOC long races none of the elite classes were fully subscribed. I think the same was true for JK as well. When National Events put on elite classes entries are often in single figures.

Perhaps the future lies with those forward thinking clubs who are putting on long-O , Trail-Challenge races etc?

Anyone can enter BEOC short - you may not reach the final but you have an equal opportunity of doing so.

BEOC middle may require selection (this wasn't applied in 2005 and numbers were too low this year).

Another example of excellent forward thinking was the introduction of the JK sprint this year. We went along just as a "supporting act" but greatly enjoyed the atmosphere and being able to run the same course (and thus compare splits) with the selected elite runners. Events like this, and the sprint champs at Milton Keynes, with a good arena, radio controls and spectator controls are starting to make spectating a worthwhile experience. Plus, unlike most other sports, you can then compete yourself in the same arena.

[Mr timE]

Lots and lots of views on this and that is often our problem in BO, we try to cater for all and end up never completely satisfying anyone. Let's be realistic about this and accept that we can normally work out roughly how many competitors we will get in different parts of the country and provide courses accordingly. Set the top courses as required and then provide a small or large range of courses as appropriate, the more popular the event the more courses we provide, Why have the same number of courses for 200 as for 1200? There is no problem having a wider range of age classes on the same course, just show their age class and people can easily work out their relative placing. If these championships are run as separate events then there is no problem having a wide range of classes on the same course as at Sandhurst in 2005. If our main champs are in the spring then there is also time to run people before or after a main seeded group. At the recent CS Cup final we ran helpers/locals both early and after the main competition thereby maximising course usage and that was in October.

[EddieH]

Allen everything you say is fine, but I think you miss my main point.
What actual courses are offered, and whether or not others are allowed to run is irrelevant. What is important is STATUS. If the title of British Champion is at stake it makes all the difference.
It is a 2 way process. Give the full range of ages the same status as the current BOC, then more will take on the discipline, realise what fun it is, and support the Elite. (Keep these disciplines as a closed shop and the Elite will continue to run in low key atmosheres as they now do when BEOC is separate from BOC.)

My partner Margaret had no einterest whatsoever in the Elite until a fantastic JK commentary (in the Lakes I think). Since then she positively wants to spectate at big events. Similarly she absolutely did not wish to do any street until I persuaded her to start in Zermat this summer - she is a total convert.

[Mr timE]

Eddie, I think we are actually both in agreement, but at the moment I do not see us getting huge numbers at the sprint, short or middle BO champs so there is scope to run multiple classes on same course. You are right though that they have to be labelled as the BO Champs for all age groups and prizes awarded accordingly. Perhaps until numbers pick up there is some scope for combining adjacent age groups, say M/W21-39, M/W40-49, M/W50-59 & M/W60+ (someone did suggest 35-43, 44-55 etc but that sounds silly !). I personally don't like the term Junior or Vet, why not just use the age as a label, it has more meaning to newcomers & spectators.

Obviously the elite runners do not want their race compromised with slower runners giving away control sites so we need to give them a window to run their seeded race. However, with shorter races there is no problem with wider age spans on a course, I would not want to run a 17km elite classic, but I am happy to do the same 7km middle race. There is no need to 30 separate courses, one per class as at the BOC, probably 4 or 5 would do it.

[graeme]

Yes...but when was the last time that you had your entry for M21E turned down?

Let me think...

Another example of excellent forward thinking was the introduction of the JK sprint this year.

Yup, that was the one!

[NeilC]

Sorry to hear that you were overlooked. Take heart in the fact that it turned out to be a chronically underplanned classic race on totally unsuitable terrain A great sprint race though.

[graeme]

Silly me for looking at the title of the thread...

Selection will be an issue with elite-only short and medium races, since far more people will be able and keen to do them if there are no alternate courses. For the sprint the qualifier-final format should solve it, but entering the middle champs on the other side of the country is unappealing of you dont know whether you'll get a run, and giving up on running age-class classics at BOC and JK to collect UK cup points will be unappealing to many.