vhi expansion? *split from e.d.s. thread

[Darwin]

On a related note, could the VHI teams be made bigger, to provide some motivation and aspiration for the wider population of vets? It's seems amazing to me that even the likes of Clive Hallet and Peter Haines can't get a run.

Limiting the selectors to 2 selections inevitably means they are going to go for the safe choices - I'd do the same in their position.

Is there a practical reason why each country couldn't field, say, 5 competitors per class - (with only top two counting if you like)?

The VHI could maybe then feel like a high point of the year, with the top in class fighting for a place throughout the season. At the moment it feels like a bit of a sideline with (in my class at least) the same 2 representatives every year.

[redkite]

Great idea Becks- keep up the good work

Given all the references to the VHI, If any of you want to run this year's VHI courses on the weekend of 11 and 12 of Novemeber and make a point to the selectors why not come to this years event on the glorious Welsh moorland of Merthyr Common and Mynydd Llangatwg.
full details http://www.swoc.org.uk/web/fixtures/Next%20fixture.htm

The courses will all be techincal, challenging and difficult- great fun

[DM]

It's seems amazing to me that even the likes of Clive Hallet and Peter Haines can't get a run.

Limiting the selectors to 2 selections inevitably means they are going to go for the safe choices - I'd do the same in their position.

If Clive Hallet is not a safe choice then who is? 4 wins in a row at the Lakes 5 Days, both days at Twin Peak and many M21s in other events. Depends of course if the chosen person wants to run in VHI.

[DM]

It's seems amazing to me that even the likes of Clive Hallet and Peter Haines can't get a run.

Limiting the selectors to 2 selections inevitably means they are going to go for the safe choices - I'd do the same in their position.

If Clive Hallet is not a safe choice then who is? 4 wins in a row at the Lakes 5 days, both days of Twin Peak and numerous M21s behind him in other races. Depends if the person selected wants to run in the VHI.

[Darwin]

Yes - well I don't know how these things work, but Clive Hallet appears to be the reserve M40 for VHI, so I guess he's available to run.

As for the Scottish response: I don't understand why accommodation is an issue here. If people can get themseves to the selection events - why can't they can't do the same for the VHI itself?
Scotland can't field field 5 competitors in the vets classes? - you can't find 5 people keen to represent their country? - Blimey! Unless you are talking about 65+ which I can understand might be difficult.

This wasn't meant to be a gripe about selection by the way - though inevitably it has been taken as such. I was trying to make a positive suggestion about making veterans orienteering in England a bit more interesting.

[Patrick]

As for the Scottish response: I don't understand why accommodation is an issue here. If people can get themseves to the selection events - why can't they can't do the same for the VHI itself?

Well done! You've just demonstrated exactly why English teams don't have the same spirit as the Scots (and Welsh and Irish). It's a TEAM event. You travel as a team, stay together as a team, support each other before, during and after the races, and usually have a slap-up banquet and a few beers together on the Saturday night.

Scotland can't field field 5 competitors in the vets classes? - you can't find 5 people keen to represent their country? - Blimey! Unless you are talking about 65+ which I can understand might be difficult.

I don't think you have any idea how few orienteers there are in Scotland.

Number of finishers in the female VHI classes at yesterday's SOL, held on one of the best areas in the UK:

W35L 3
W40L 8
W45L 4 (1 non-scot)
W50L 7
W55L 9 (2 non-scot)
W60L 5

So there were 33 Scottish veteran women (plus a couple running up) at one of our premier races, and you're surprised we can't raise a team of 30 to make what would be a round trip of 1000 miles for some!

This wasn't meant to be a gripe about selection by the way - though inevitably it has been taken as such. I was trying to make a positive suggestion about making veterans orienteering in England a bit more interesting.

Perhaps there are ways of doing so which don't screw up existing international competitions.

Cheers,

Patrick

[EddieH]

If you want to make the result a foregone conclusionfor England just keep piling on the numbers of runners. England ALWAYS used to win because the Scots simply did not have the competitors in the oldest classes. As the o population has got older this has to a greater extent been minimised so now we can compete. Sadly Wales and Ireland really struggle because they have an even smaller pool to select from.

Accomodation is also difficult. Why do the Southern Irish always put it on Carlingford? because they say it is the only place where they can accomodate all the teams.

Expanding numbers is all round a bad idea.

[HOCOLITE]

I was very surprised to see the low numbers at the e vent. I bet there are a lot of Orienteers in England who could be eligible.

[Toni]

Southern Ireland is not a home country. Northern Ireland compete (with ROI guests) I guess they cross the border to Carlingford for races because it is easy to get to from across the water rather than bringing you all to the north west....

[Gross]

Used to have some great times with competitions against Eire.... long road journey's from Larne down to Dublin etc... great competion & great social times.... Bring them back I say

[Ravinous]

What about splitting England into 2 - North and South? Three (with Midlands too) might be pushing it. It would seem logical to me given the numbers involved in the regions.

[Darwin]

Patrick,
If I'm after a slap up meal and beers I'll join my local pub quiz team - I was talking about international orienteering competition - not my social life.

I can only guess at what lies behind the vehemence of your reply to my suggestions, but maybe if I were a regular representative of the Scottish team I would want to preserve the status quo.

Your statistics are questionable, to say the least. Sunday's SOL may well have been on a great area, it also coincided with the Karrimor and was not in a central location - numbers were inevitably low in all classes. Anyway if there are problems with some of the women's vet classes it would be perfectly logical to adjust representation to reflect class populations across the board.

Whether the numbers problem you describe is real or not, I fail to see the logic, or fairness, of a formula that creates a competition artificially designed to favour the smaller nations - which as you and Eddie H have explained rather well, it clearly is.

I rather like the English N & S regions idea - It's a compromise that's a better reflection of the distribution of orienteers and gives more people fair crack of the whip.

[mharky]

Patrick,
If I'm after a slap up meal and beers I'll join my local pub quiz team - I was talking about international orienteering competition

...I thought you were talking about the Home Internationals...

[Godders]

Darwin, suggest you look at some more Scottish Badge event results. The numbers Patrick quotes are very similar to Drummond Hill last October, which didn't clash with the Karrimor (with its large numbers of veteran women participants ) and was more central.

Having run for both England and Scotland the main reason that Scotland do better than would be expected based on population is team spirit.

[fish]

If I'm after a slap up meal and beers I'll join my local pub quiz team - I was talking about international orienteering competition - not my social life.

Whether the numbers problem you describe is real or not, I fail to see the logic, or fairness, of a formula that creates a competition artificially designed to favour the smaller nations - which as you and Eddie H have explained rather well, it clearly is.

As others have commented the social aspect of any team competition is/should be quite large, and an important part of things.

Perhaps a different way of looking at the nubers is that it is a formula that creates a competition/event where there is competition between the nations. Surely a good thing. It's not meant to be a competition for the best 20 (or x) individual orienteers in an age group. That's what things like the British champs are for.