No Short Courses for night champs- does it affect entries?

[Suzy R Sopham]

I was on O-Entries last night entering SOL7, and I thought it would be good to 'make a weekend of it' and enter the Scottish Night Champs; however, I soon realised that there were no short classes available. I know about the guideline (no. 2) for the night courses, but it makes me think twice about entering, when the official suggestion is to just run non-competitively as an eg. M50L so that I can run the course I would normally enter. (2 courses lower than the long). It seems to take the edge off the competition for me. I'm sure in previous years I've always had an M21s course to enter! I'm not sure I understand the reason for not offering short classes as it would not result in any further courses being required.
Perhaps if only offering limited classes, which to me makes it elitist, then an alternative would be to make it along the lines of a colour-coded format.
Any views?

[Godders]

Having planned a couple of Scottish Night Champs I would support the minimum number of courses - as the entries are always very low.

There's not much need for classes beyond junior, senior, vets and super vets.

[NeilC]

Presumably this poll is restricted to the Scottish Night Champs. I've planned eight courses for the Southern Night Champs where you can even do M21V.

[graeme]

From the rules, which I maintain, but didn't write (I think it was Terry O'Brien). I got no feedback when I asked for comments of them two years ago.

There are no designated "S" Classes. Competitors not competent to tackle the L course should be advised to enter any course matching their ability, rather than specified by age. Typically, the that “S� classes would be accommodated at two levels down from their corresponding "L" Class e.g. a competitor on M40S on Course 4, with the exception of M/W20S who are likely to be students with little or no orienteering experience and should be placed on Course 7. All Junior "B" CLASSES and M/W20S are on Course 7. For those with very limited experience of orienteering, be it day or night, it is vital that success is achievable.

The argument against short classes was that even more than in the daytime its impossible to cater for the "technically good but not unfit" and the "fit but techically ungood". I agree with Terry's idea that at night its especially important to take on something you're capable of.

There are no prizes on S - just pick the distance
you are comfortable with and enjoy the experience!

Graeme

[Suzy R Sopham]

Having planned a couple of Scottish Night Champs I would support the minimum number of courses - as the entries are always very low.

You do not need to increase the number of courses, they just need to add the classes on the correct level of course; i.e Just have M21s on course 3. It makes one feel excluded when the appropriate class for my ability is not offered. I don't want to enter as an M50L and automatically become non-competitive, just so that I can run the course I would usually run!

I agree with Terry's idea that at night its especially important to take on something you're capable of.

I totally agree too, and that's why I feel it's important that people don't feel pressurised into running above their ability.

just pick the distance your comfortable with and enjoy the experience!

Surely this is a good arguement for it being colour-coded?

[mharky]

It makes one feel excluded when the appropriate class for my ability is not offered.

I think lots of M21s know how you feel.....

[graeme]

just pick the distance your comfortable with and enjoy the experience!

Surely this is a good arguement for it being colour-coded?

You can make an argument for most things by quoting half a sentence out of context. As this is the National Championships and the case for making it colour coded to accommodate those who can't run their age class is very, very weak.

[Suzy R Sopham]

Thanks for all the interesting comments. I decided to mention the subject since I usually relish the challenge of night orienteering, and last weekend's Harris Relay in the Pentland's made me look forward to the Night-champs, however when I found out that I would have to enter non-competitively to run my appropriate course for my class of M21s, the motivation to enter just wasn't there.
I have previously been able to run M21s at the night champs by Interlopers last year( Drummond Hill was a fantastic area), and it was the same for previous years at Newcastleton and Tentsmuir. I'll be running M21s at the night part of the TINTO TWIN too. I just can't understand why there isn't the appropriate class when it would not require any further addition to the courses, and may not exclude some orienteers.
Anyway, I've noticed that the closing date on O-Entries is the 20th, so I've a bit of time left yet to convince myself to go!

[graeme]

Now I'm confused...

I wouldn't say you were "non-competitive" (which tends to suggest having unfair prior knowledge of the courses or area), you can run the course appropriate for you, you'll get a time which you can compare with others on the same course. It's exactly the same as last year when you were the only M21 on the course ... you don't get to be Scottish Champion.

And Ballogie is just as good an area for night-O as Drummond Hill.

later...

Maybe your problem is with Oentries which doesn't list any appropriate M21S option ?

If so, just enter M45L or somesuch and send them a note in the "notes" section to tell them you're really M21S, I'll square it with MAROC.

Graeme

[Electrocuted]

I don't want to enter as an M50L and automatically become non-competitive, just so that I can run the course I would usually run!

You could always be an honourary W21 for the night!

[Suzy R Sopham]

Only if you give me a chasing start

[grubby]

There is the question of ranking points to consider. . . . .

I am a better night orienteer than I am a day runner.
I am rather well placed in the M45S rankings but to topple a certain Mr. Barrett, need one or two good runs in M45S before the end of the season. If I don't find a replacement KIMM partner for my injured mate, I was seriously considering going all the way up to the Scottish Nights and running Short. With a bit of luck, I, and anyone else, could get a shed load of points if we produce the goods. The principle being that Night O, like technical, physically rough areas during the day, spread the result times out alot. Conversely, fast, easy areas like the CSC Final bunch the times up.

It is debatable, of course, whether either Mr. Barrett (previously extremely well ranked on M45 Long) or myself should be running short, but just how far down the ranking list do you go ?

Go on. . . .give us short courses, otherwise I'll just have to run M45 Long at the Scottish Nights, and put Mr. Dean to the sword.

[Godders]

Playing the rankings like that only works if you beat someone else on the same class by a bigger time than the formula predicts for small fields. Being the only runner doesn't gain you extra points however well you run.

[Suzy R Sopham]

I notice that MAROC webpage has been updated to include the Guidelines that Graeme mentioned.

I have entered as an M50L as we are often grouped in the same course, and course 3 is at my expected course length ratio of 0.59 of the M21L.

I still feel it is a shame that short classes are not offerred, and believe that this may prevent some people from attending.
I am still unclear as to why the decision was made, this year not to offer them, since this would not require adding any more courses.

[awk]

There is the question of ranking points to consider. . . . .
It is debatable, of course, whether either Mr. Barrett (previously extremely well ranked on M45 Long) or myself should be running short, but just how far down the ranking list do you go ?

Steve is running M45S at present, because he is currently unable to train or run L distances (doctor's orders).

Whatever the reason, the whole point behind L and S classes rather than A and B, is that anybody can run either distance, whatever their standard, and several of those who could quite easily run L choose to run S because they prefer the shorter distance. Indeed, at the O-ringen the year before last, the winner of M45AK (Swedish for M45S), the winner was a certain Kent Olsson, ex-world champion. It was a privilege to 'race' against him.

Is preference for the shorter distances why you run M45S? As someone who regularly gets stuffed by you, I've certainly not got a problem with that; at least you give me a target!!

Personally, as regularly expounded here, I find the current ranking structure a complete waste of time and space, and a major impediment to decent quality races.

BTW, you might get a decent amount of points at the Scottish Nights, but only if you get more than (I think) 15 competitors: below that the 'small class' fudge factor kicks in, which sets the standard deviation without reference to the actual spread in the class.