Course lengths

[Steve]

Ok it's not an interpretation, but as I understand it the guidelines, as opposed to rules, don't have to be followed to the letter. Perhaps the majority of planners are caving in to the masses who have come to expect a certain time out.

I too would prefer longer courses (although I assumed the reason my course is short is not because the planners are caving in to the masses but because orienteering courses generally are a bit wimpy). I'm not relishing running 45L next year and will continue to run up at regional events.

[SeanC]

There might be less of this sort of grief if there were less age categories. Then you could have short, medium and long courses and keep everyone happy (I like them short BTW).

Something like

20+ short
20+ medium
20+ long

40+ short
40+ medium
40+ long

50+ short
50+ medium
50+ long

60+ short
60+ medium
60+ long

70+ short
70+ medium
70+ long

we'd also feel younger for longer

[Kitch]

How could it possibly be a rule ?
Of course its a guideline, this recognises the fact that planning can't be an exact science.
If it was a rule and the course was not won by an elite standard runner in 67 minutes then the course would have broken the rules and would have to be voided.
That would be stupid.
Just because its is a guideline does not mean that it should not be adhered to.

[graeme]

How could it possibly be a rule ?

Because its in BOF rules, appendix B 2.5.1, not in the guidelines. The rule is that the planner should aim for the guideline times, not that they should be achieved. Its a rule to prevent the planner wilfully neglecting it, e.g. offering a 25min winning time M21 regional event course.

Graeme

[Neil M35]

How about some numbers to inform this debate?

A quick extract from the ranking list - these are the winning times and names on M21L for all the C3s on the ranking list this year (apart from summer multidays)

Time Name Region
55 Nixon Scotland
58 Crane Midlands
59 Musgrave Scotland
62 Tala South
63 Tala South
63 Buckley North
64 Leitch South
65 Buckley North
66 Coombs Scotland
66 Robinson Midlands
66 Crook South
66 Barrable Scotland
66 Chesters South
66 Barrable South
67 Mercer South
67 Botheroyd South
69 Velecky South
70 Robinson Midlands
70 Rollins South
70 Walder Scotland
71 Hallett South
71 Archer North
73 Crook South
74 Hallett South
75 Wetherill Midlands
75 Stevens North
76 Crook South
77 Barrable South
77 Hallett South
78 Buffett Midlands
79 Preston Midlands
80 Smith North
83 Hallett Wales
85 Nixon Scotland

Now you can argue about how good these people are and how much quicker a top M21 elite could have gone. A number of these winners haven't been M21s for a good few years. There seems to be a particular problem in Scotland with two of the shortest and the longest time - perhaps because of the nature of Scottish terrain planners find it difficult to predict what a M21 is capable of. Certainly most of the complaining seems to be coming from folk based in Scotland.

[tim sleepless]

To add some complexity to the debate... what happens to the standard deviation once the climb gets greater? My suspicision is that it gets much greater, as the time difference beween the superfit and the plodder increases, which can potentially create a bit of a problem -- as you have a choice between as courses would almost inevitably be either too short for the elite, or too long for the masses.

[Kitch]

85 Nixon Scotland

I wouldn't call that a problem - I'd call that the best race of the year (apart from the business with the ravine and the face and the ribs)

[awk]

All of this talk of needing to run up (down or sideways), would be pretty much redundant if a range of courses were offered based on distance etc., i.e. get rid of the age classes, and the dictation by the longest course of the length of all the others.

District events with Black courses (and a short Green).

[Godders]

55 Nixon Scotland
....
85 Nixon Scotland

I ran both these races which were in great terrain and very enjoyable.

In both cases I could tell from the course lengths roughly how long I was going to be out for based upon old results (from a 6 day and a British Champs).

I'm not bothered if the courses deviate from the guidlines/rules like this but it is important to know before hand how long you are likely to be out. For the longer course I carried water and set off steadily, for the shorter one I set out hard without carrying water.

The C3 I planned last year had an M21L winning time of 88 minutes (by an M35, with an M40 second and an M35 third), although test running by Gillian suggested that sub 70mins was possible. Using the BOF ratios M45L was won in 59 mins and M50L by EddieH in 64 mins. From my experience the BOF ratios are pretty much spot on (as you would expect them to be).

[Red Adder]

"Why don't they have separate entry fees for those who do and do not use porta loos?

Oh No!! Don't mention things like that to Red Adder! - my inbox is full of ongoing discussions about whether we should spend £200 on a portaloo for a district event or not."

Come on PFB .... I was the only committee member not to comment.

[Red Adder]

Just a few year ago I went to an event where the planner mis-interpretted th map scale and produced courses only 67 % of advertised length. Only a few competitors seemed to notice and no-one of 200 + entries complained. :lol:

[Mrs H.]

Unlike the infamous Midland Night Champs on Cannock Chase a few years back when the courses were 50% longer than stated and everybody noticed

[Red Adder]

Judging from the posts of Mrs H and myself that whilst some want courses on the tough side your
average punter probably doesn't. Again back to the beauty of colour coded where you select when suits you rather than that prescribed for your age group.

[Red Adder]

Did PFB really run 14km on Sunday on the brown at Hockham. I did the blue and whilst it felt longer than 7km I doubt I actually went much futher than
8.5 km even though I had to seach for a couple of controls. There did seem to be quite a bit of
discussion about courses being on the long side - the vegetation was a lot denser than at other times (ie only in Spring) we have run there.

[roadrunner]

I'm not bothered if the courses deviate from the guidlines/rules like this but it is important to know before hand how long you are likely to be out.

I agree - provided that you know before you decide which course to run (i.e. if the courses are on the long side I might run the short rather than the long). Unfortunately, you don't tend to find out course lengths until the final details, by which time it's too late to change.