management committee minutes

[roadrunner]

The craziest thing about CRB checks is that, apparently, if you have obtained a disclosure for some other activity (say you're a schoolteacher, for example), you still have to go through the process again for orienteering - or so we were told at a recent club committee meeting. The reason is that, if you commit an offence after getting the disclosure, only the body that it was obtained through gets told. Who invented such a crazy scheme?!

Maybe we should just put everyone's criminal record on the net

[Tatty]

I regularly help on the BOF Junior tours each summer and they have always accepted the CRB check I have done as a teacher!! So what is the offical line I wonder?!!

[robertrabbit]

Don't know the official official line but i know i had to get a check done for all 4 of the bodies i help with ! Nuts.

[John Morris]

I've just taken a look back at the ten pages of this thread.

It's depressing to see how quickly "child welfare" is understood to mean "child protection" and how quickly "child protection" becomes paedophile hunting.

Even orienteers can fall for it, or so this correspondence suggests to me.

For a rather better-balanced view of HM Government's views, try the "Every Child Matters" website, at:-

http://www.everychildmatters.gov.uk/children/.

The 5 aims listed here, on which the Children Act 2004 is based, give a much broader, rounded, and long-term, view of the welfare of children and young persons, one that makes it clear that Orienteering is not trailing reluctantly behind but up there at the head of the field - and has been for decades.

We orienteers are doing it right.

CPSU, and other blinkered and over-zealous do-gooders, should be taking lessons from us, not vice versa. (imho...)

And, if you would like to know where that irritating phrase "the welfare of the child is paramount" comes from, and what its (very restricted) scope is, read Section 1, Subsection 1 of the Children Act 1989 (also on the web). (A clue: if you're not both in a Courtroom, and also sitting in the big seat at the front, it doesn't apply to you.)

Remember Salem, and don't get taken in by the witch-finders.

Do I sound a little cross about this? It's possibly because, in the space of a few weeks, I have come across three situations (only one of which involves orienteering) in which "protectionists" were acting to the detriment of worthy individuals and social institutions.

I'm drafting a paper on the subject (copies available on request, and comments welcomed). I would very much like to hear of any case studies (that you can personally vouch for) that might provide illustrations (one way or the other...).

And DO read the "Every Child Matters" web-site!

[ifititches]

John , I agree with much of what you say,especially how welfare suddenly beomes paedophile hunting.

But some of the links from the every child matters site, especially to the huge document on childrens' play, might be seen as an instance of 'teaching your grandmother to suck eggs and pulp a forest or two for paper at the same time"

I'm not sure why you've such a downer on the CPSU. Another of the links is to Sport England which is a partner of NSPCC in the CPSU and there's lots of mention of training and support for people working with children throughout the site, so child welfare is there as a concept all the way through. I've never read CPSU documents as being only about child sex abuse or paedophilia (or perhaps I've misunderstood your objections to them)

And isn't the CPSU the organisation that gave Mrs H a useful reply on the naming (or otherwise) of children in pictures? (discussed on a thread in ?2004)

personally, I've never come across anything recently in my familiy's life where sport was stopped for these reasons. My experience of things being curtailed by provider organisations was very much in the period around 1993-98. Perhaps my family have just been lucky at their schools and sports clubs not to have had overprotective teachers/coaches though, or it may be that most of the curtailment still comes at the age they were then (5 to 10 years)

Be interested to see result of your investigations

[graeme]

personally, I've never come across anything recently in my familiy's life where sport was stopped for these reasons.

There's not much parking outside school, so last year a group of parents set up a "school walking bus" to take the children the last half mile across a park. This was immediately stopped, for several months on the insistence that they all has disclosure checks done (notwithstanding that, being a bunch of middle-class do-gooders, most of us already had them). Eventually it was restarted, only to be stopped again when we were advised that the disclosures needed to be done again because it hadn't been made clear in the original application that a "School walking bus" was an activity involving children. Several months and a few lardier, tardier kids later it's finally up and walking.

You couldn't make it up...

[seabird]

John Morris is right in identifying that the positive outcomes highlighted in Every Child Matters are what we are about.

CRB checks are but a small part of this. As a society I hope we still recognise that to achieve positive outcomes along the way we need to take some risks.

Graeme correctly identifies the delays that can occur in waiting for the outcome of CRB checks. As one of the "do-gooders", regularly checked, we still experience long delays in taking up new jobs due to fresh CRB checks. And the same could apply in allowing people to set up orienteering activities involving young people.

Most CRB checks establish no risk. It seems to me that we have to move to a child welfare culture which is better able to balance risks. By all means lets check people's criminal records, but in the meantime please let us get on with the positive aspects of promoting children's welfare without delay. The risks from delay in setting up activities with and for young people far outweighs the small risk of a paedophile being identified. The club should have child protection (welfare) procedures to minimise the opportunity of any adult active with young people being able to develop an exclusive and potentially abusive relationship with a young person, while the outcome of CRB checks is awaited (and after).

[Domhnull Mor]

I haven't really followed this discussion until now (so please excuse any apparent ignorance on my part) but a work colleague of mine recently rasied the topic of the CRB check requirements and was asking me if I knew anything about them.
To give you some background, he is Swedish and is planning, along with his family, to move to England to take up a two year posting there. He has three young children and his wife is an infant school teacher. She is hoping to be able to find some kind of employment (in the same or similar line of work, either professional or voluntary) in England.
This may be outwith the knowledge of the contributers to this website but, given that background checks of the type required in England may not be possible to obtain, is she likely to meet a brick wall when it comes to trying to get work (professional or voluntary), even if she has some kind of "certification"?
This is an important factor for them as it can be the decisive factor in whether or not they make the move.
Like I say, I have no previous experience of this so any comments would be welcomed.

[Copepod]

I started my new job in late Aug, having supplied employer with all documents & form for CRB check in early Aug, only to find out they didn't post anything to CRB until last week, after I had phoned CRB to ask where my form had got to. So frustrated about limitations in what I can do in this job, combined with extra travel costs & time & accommodation costs, that I am seriously considering resigning!

[johnloguk]

Domnull Mor said;

"This may be outwith the knowledge of the contributers to this website but, given that background checks of the type required in England may not be possible to obtain, is she likely to meet a brick wall when it comes to trying to get work (professional or voluntary), even if she has some kind of "certification"? "

From my knowledge of the CRB system it is certainly possible for foreign nationals to be successfully cleared in this way. Many local authorities have employed social workers and teachers from abroad in recent years, the system is there to process them. However, all the horror stories of delayed, lost and even wrong CRB checks are also true. The system is overstretched and inconsistent.

The huge waiting times of the early days aren't there anymore, they can process applications very quickly if the mood takes them, but this varies from application to application. Prepare for delays and lots of annoyance, and you may be pleasantly surprised; a pessimist is rarely disappointed.

[Kitch]

Correct me if I'm wrong here am I right in thinking:

A CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check is not a legal requirement for anything.
It relates to any criminal activity, speeding , fraud, theft, not just child abuse or sexual offences.
It is something that a responsible organisation will undertake to satisfy itself that someone should be trusted in a given 'sensitive' role within that organisation.

It says "this person has broken these laws", nothing more. It then allows the organisation to make a judgement on whether to trust the person in the role in question.
It does not say " this person is safe for x, y, z"
It is not a qualification, you don't go on the "good person" register
This is why people end up undergoing multiple CRBs because it is the organisation that requests it and the organisation that must judge it. As such any organisation that takes it duty of care seriously is most likely to request a fresh CRB rather than rely on some previous CRB or the word of the individual that they have done a CRB check (which means nothing because as above you don't get a "pass").

When viewed in these terms it perhaps becomes more understandable.

This also reveals that if every single person involved in helping at an event were to be required to be CRB checked that would be at the behest of the organisation responsible - be that BOF or the Club. I suspect that BOF will offer guidelines to clubs and expect clubs to do the leg work in complying. These guidelines from BOF need to be well thought out so as not to over burden clubs and put the volunteer workforce off.
They could say
"everyone must be CRBed and signed off by the club committee"
or they could say
"the club should take appropriate measures to ensure that individuals in a position of responsibility are suited to their role with respect to child welfare, finacial, road traffic.... responsibilities"

As far as a Swede getting a teaching job (why would they move to England ?) It should not be a barrier - I have a friend who is Dutch, has spent much of his career in Africa and Thailand, and is now teaching in England.

[John Morris]

ifititches asks:-

"I'm not sure why you've such a downer on the CPSU."

Because their website appeals briefly to the 5 Aims of "Every Child Matters" before going on to equate welfare with protection, and protection with abuser-hunting. I smell zealotry.

And like you, I note that they act for, and will be able strongly to influence, Sport England.

I hope that their analysts, inspectors and decision-makers are better-informed, logically more scrupulous, and less narrowly focussed than their website presentation - but I remain to be convinced.

Please convince me.

[HOCOLITE]

I'm going for an interview for a job in finance at a secondary school. Would they expect CRB checking for that because I could have contact with children? I have my O CRB and wondered if it might be a string to my bow. As long as I promise not to fire said bow I know that different organisations are expected to take out fresh CRB's and if relevant I'm sure the school would do.

[Harley]

Hocolite, I would expect them to want their own check. My school were initially happy with my O CRB and my PGCE CRB, but they are not very administratively aware and have subsequently been wrapped on the knuckes by the LEA who insist that I get a fresh 'school originated' CRB.

[Mrs H.]

John - thank you for sending me your draft paper. I can't tell you how profoundly releaved I am to know that someone at BOF Central is challenging the demands being placed on us.

It may surprise some of you if I said I am actually passionate about Child Welfare - but those of you who know me well will also know that my child-raising mantra has been "you can't protect your children from life, you can only prepare them to live it".

It is something that I have found orienteering uniquely qualified to do and it is that single belief which has led me to evangelise about it (or as one nopesport contributor said recently in a pm)

become obsessed with your own dogma

I don't deny the accusation - why should I?

It is my belief that parents almost always want to do the right thing for their children - they just don't always know what the right thing is.

Disclaimer: there are many ways to introduce people to orienteering - this is just one - there will be many others which work - choose one which you can promote passionately and with conviction and it will probably work. I just find it highly ironic - that very soon according to everything I'm reading - children are going to be "protected" from people like me!