Advertising events under new membership scheme

[awk]

For those of us of average standard in the veteran classes (I'm M50), it's a bit different: there's lots of age class competition at most C3s (M50 and M55 are usually the largest classes these days), whereas at a C4 I'd be running a blue course (about the same length as M50L) against many younger competitors, while some of the best M50s will certainly run the brown - so from that point of view, the competition at a C4 isn't as good.

Interesting to see different perceptions. I'm M45, would regard myself as currently below average overall (good technically but unfit), and am running blue. To my mind a good competition is based on competing against others of a similar standard. I'm not bothered about the age, so the fact that some might be older or younger than my age class is neither here nor there, nor is where the best in my age class might run - can save that for the occasional National Event etc.).

[Red Adder]

I for one think C4s are generally a far more effective use of our finite resources, especially now a new, pre-printed map, electronic punching and toilets are just about standard fare for around £ 4-5. 7-9 courses tailored to your standard (white to brown/black with a red ?) rather than your age gives me all the competition and choice I need. But then I don't worry about ranking and see the competition as the terrain and the planner (sadly they also generally win just now).

How about JK, British, Scottish, North, Midland and South championships for age class events ( seems like we had that format circa 1985). This does ignore C3 altogether so I'm sure many would disagree.


PS I was once told that the "Badge" concept was originally introduced primarily for juniors but the competitive aspect attracted seniors. Anyone know if there is any truth in this.

[hillwalker2004]

My personal opinion is that the number of C3 events is there or there abouts right. It might be possible to condense the number of events slightly to say a total of 60-70 per year, but anything less and the rankings are going to be meaningless (or even more meaningless for those dont like the ranking system in the first place!).

I'm one of those orienteers who almost exclusively competes in C3s as I like to compete regularly with others in my age group. I tend to find that in the C4's many of the names i'm running against i've never heard of so cant judge whether i've had a good or bad run. On the other hand I agree with an earlier post in that the advantage of C4's is that you can decide which course to enter, depending upon how you feel on the day.

At the end of the day it is down to club's to decide what events they hold (i.e not by BOF directive), and ultimately market forces will decide what works and what doesnt.

I'm not trying to provoke anyone on this subject, merely provide an alternative perspective!

[Oldman]

I though BOFREG was no longer available. ie you had to be a Club member to be a BOF member

[ifititches]

jumping back to red adder's question a couple of posts ago. When I was in a Uni club (most of the 1970s) the University expected us to go to badge events and championship events whenever possible, in return for their support. Don't think we'd have been allowed to just attend lower-key events. I think it was because they wanted to see us get nationally recognised standards, and be up against the best opposition whenever possible. Then we were mostly M/W19s (you stayed a W19 until you were 35, but there was an M21 class).

It did mean we had to do huge amounts of travelling, but regional championship events, where you could get championship standard, were usually very high quality.

It wasn't my impression that the older people in the W19 were less interested than us in getting gold/championship standard, so would be a bit surprised if these were mostly introduced on behalf of juniors. Certainly the badge standards were worked out for every age class, although on one set of results I still have from 1973, the ages groups only went up to M43 and W35..

I'm not sure when the colour standards came in. I have a set of results from an event in Leicestershire in 1979 in which an "EMOA certificate time" is shown for courses called blue, green, orange yellow and white, but a similar event at Oversley that year has courses A to D, nearly 300 competitors, and no "standard" times at all

Incidentally that 1979 Leics "club" event made a profit of £123.95; the 1973 BUOC badge event made £168

[Marco Polo]

Having had some discussions with the Midland nights team, I'd like to make the point that LEI are not attempting to make a large surplus on the event even at the prices shown, but neither are they trying to make a loss, pretty much to break even. I was interested in NeilCs comments on the economics of the Southern Nights although I wasn't sure, Neil if you meant that the event would make a loss before or after all the mapping costs were taken into account. If the southern night championships is expected to get a couple of hundred competitors, a look at the results for the last three Midland night championships suggests that the MNC turnout will be lower than this. (About 190 for the WCH event in 2003, 60 for the WAOC event in 2004 and 95 or so for SBOC event last year.)
LEI have also had a late change of venue for this event, and remapping costs associated with Grace Dieu, but the club expect to use Grace Dieu in future and this shouldn't have been in vain.

There has been some discussion about whether clubs should be using high prices at C3 events to subsidise C4s, but I don't think that applies in this case.

Mark
LEI

[NeilC]

Like many events with new professional maps the SNC would make a big loss if the cost of the map were included in the event budget. The risk is that the area might not become available again due to a change of owners, the building of a golf course etc etc.

[SeanC]

phew, its hard to keep up with this thread .....

Going back to the issue of local events and event fees, I agree with those that say that there should be more emphasis on local events. But on their own I dont think they're the answer. Kent has a very good series of saturday local events, but they are mainly used by long standing experienced local orienteers, they certainly havent attracted the number of new orienteers that the MADO initiative has. It would seem that the sport as a whole needs to help beginners more, by letting them know about the sport through publicity or showing them how to do it, which looking at the MADO example means some combination of:

- more volunteers
- leadership / vision
- money
- local accessible events

The money can be used to buy publicity, or if the club is short of volunteers to buy time (eg by getting maps made professionally) for example. Looking back through these posts there seems a majority who agree that orienteering is good value for money, so therefore I believe that orienteers could be persuaded to pay more.

Some appear to think that just dropping fees and or increasing the number of local events will make the sport as popular as it was in the 80's. I think there is more chance of Phil Collins being no 1 again! People have much more choice in their leisure activies these days, so unfortunately I think this means we have to work harder as a sport with our beginners though publicity and coaching.

Sorry if this is obvious or has repeated what others have said.

[EddieH]

One of the traditional problems with C5 events as I see it is that they completely fail to recognise that however casual people appear to be most are inherantly competitive. Events where you just start when you like and time yourself often not controlled and with fundamental errors in them were pretty standard in many regions.

With electronic punching this should no longer be the case, but I still have been to several events with e punching where no results in any form are produced. I believe that that is a turn off for the majority of people.

Moravian has always had a few summer evening events, all run on this casual basis sometimes with fewer than 5 punters. This year they decided to have a league - simple 2 courses winner gets 20 points, 2nd gets 19 etc.

Despite the fact that few ran as many as three events that could count our numbers were up massively.

One reads of other highly contended summer night leagues, and Deeside (Scotland) hasa its competitive midweek winter night league.

To be successful you need competition.

[Mrs H.]

You are absolutely right Eddie - and there is no reason why C5s shouldn't be properly organised and highly competitive.The MADO mini-league is both - and at the end of season we have a prize giving - with prizes But we still had loads of beginners turning up each time. I think it's important to have both elements so newcomers can see that the sport has plenty of potential for them if they choose to become hard core.

The blue course was contested by a pretty high quality field eventual winners being 1 Jason Howell (Warrior) 2 Andy Monro (EBor) and 3 Adventure Racer (HOC) - but the prize giving chasing sprint was won by JKJuggler in a thrilling spectacle. so perhaps we'll see a change in the honours this season. anway - first event October 14th Worcester Beacon Malvern Hills, Jason and Andy planning/controlling so get some points in early! (planners/controlloers are rewarded by a duplication of their top points score - it's best 4 out of 6 to count)

Results of all events and updated league table were up on the website by the end of each weekend.

[HOCOLITE]

Went to 2 events this weekend 1 C5 , 1 C4. Enjoyed both in different ways. C5 used the SI system where you can print off your splits and the results were up by the evening on the web. The other was YBT, very close contest between OD and HOC two points difference at the end. Due to last years positions WCH also qualify I believe so bring on the final. Results displayed on the day, and on web by the evening. This was despite attrocious weather. Also I was able to be home at a civilised time have a bath and go out in the evening. Can't see that I'd get anymore from a badge event except the fact the course I get to run is more tailored to my desires. IE not too long or physical but reasonably technical.

[ryeland of doom]

Mark,

If you think Orienteering is expensive try the following forthcoming events.

Hellrunner (Longmoor) £20.00
Dynamic Adventure £35.00
Henly Half Marathon £12.50 (£20.00 EOD)

You do get a map with Dynamic Adenture and 8hrs of exercise (£4.38 per hour is I believe reasonable value)
As Adventure Racer said don't even think about triathlon or anything else involving bikes.

This frightens me.. There is a real danger that these prices will influence ours and pull them upwards. Many of us are simply excluded from the events above, and thank goodness for square deal orienteering. It really is good value.

But I fear the worse, and like watching football and train travel, it may one day be taken from a lot of us.

At the moment -its affordable and a welcome bit of sanity in a world of daft prices. Jsut as well we are a wee bit unfashionable.

[Fat and Forty]

If you want real value for money try LDWA (Long Distance Walkers Association) events. 5.5hrs running and walking around the Cotswolds last Saturday, 25ish miles, food and drink at 4 checkpoints, meal at the finish. £4.00

[SeanC]

Yes, its a reasonable viewpoint to want orienteering to be as it is now, a (relative to other sports) low cost sport* run largely by volunteers. Apologies for repeating the same point, but if the current baby boomer generation of orienteers are not replaced, the sport will get much more expensive as this implies fewer, more widely scattered events, which in turn will surely fuel further decline....

If you want a cheap sport in the long run, it's reasonable to expect to pay more for development. Getting and keeping orienteers in the sport is surely harder now than 20 years ago as now orienteering has to compete with

- lots more adventure sports
- lots more leisure attractions (such as Thorpe Park that someone mentioned earlier)
- shopping

for the sunday family leisure market. All of these have big marketing and advertising budgets to compete with.

If a club, region or BOF come up with a sensible plan to increase numbers, one element of which is us the experienced orienteers paying a bit more, then from a financial self interest viewpoint, it makes sense to put our hand in our pockets and pay.**

If extra money were to be raised through entry fees for development, maybe it would help if this fact was advertised in the event details (a bit like christmas cards - "entry fees £5.50, £1 of your entry goes to the save orienteering fund").

*assuming there are local events nearby
**not juniors or beginners