Advertising events under new membership scheme

[NeilC]

Going to the BOF fixtures list, I could find only one regional event south of Birmingham at less than £8* (Saxons in December) and none less than £7.50*; is there a more up to date list somewhere else?
* discounted rates for BOF members: otherwise increasingly talking £10+.

Well for one Southdowns Badge event next weekend was £7.50 pre-entry.

Regarding the costs of night badge events I'm planning the Southern Night Champs (also less than £8 entry)on a professionally updated map and expect only a couple of hundred competitors max. The event itself will make a loss but of course we hope to recoup that by using the map for future events. There is though the risk that the forest might become unavailable for some reason - eg they might press ahead sooner with the golf course planned on part of the area!!!!

[awk]

Well for one Southdowns Badge event next weekend was £7.50 pre-entry.

Maybe, but it doesn't appear on the BOF Fixtures list. That's why I asked if there was a more up to date list. I didn't include night badge events as was trying to compare like with like, but they do appear to be marginally cheaper than daytime events.

[HOCOLITE]

Awk HOC Malvern badge event 29th October 2006 does cost £8.00,but there is no car parking charge and entry fee includes bussing to start and from finish. Therefore that would put it at £7.00 if you took the average car park fee of £1.00 and then looked at number of single occupancy cars that would give a good average of £7.50. There is also EVO as there is a flea market at the parking(3 counties show ground), views should be good as long as weather is reasonable. All the usual frills SI, new map etc

[awk]

The point is Hocolite and others, it doesn't matter how you phrase it, orienteering at regional events is not cheap (and the HOC event is still £8), especially when you consider that when a regional event is put on, it immediately puts a stop on other events being organised within a wide catchment, thus forcing those who want to orienteer to travel longer distances. So the entry fee includes car parking. So what? It might be good value, it might include a few 'extras' (and buses don't add any extra value as a competitor, rather the reverse), but it still costs.

Now that's OK if it is the exceptional good quality competition, but as has been pointed out (not just by me) that isn't the case quite a lot of the time. In fact, often the offering is somewhat less than a decent district event, and my experience is that quite a lot of regional events would have been far better (and cheaper) if organised as district events.

Out of interest, what extra value is the HOC Malvern event (presumably a good quality regional event) offering above and beyond a good quality district event?

[Oldman]

AWK said:

Maybe, but it doesn't appear on the BOF Fixtures list.

I don't understand that. It is there now, and has been on the online fixtures for some time. Are you remembering to Refresh when you access it?

[Adventure Racer]

Awk HOC Malvern badge event 29th October 2006 does cost £8.00,but there is no car parking charge and entry fee includes bussing to start and from finish.

So if I cycle there and so don't need the bus I'll be effectively subsidising the drivers then?













Oh, and just in case!

[awk]

Are you remembering to Refresh when you access it?

Obviously not! The 'one' should therefore be changed to 'two'. The rest is still accurate as far as I can see.

[roadrunner]

my experience is that quite a lot of regional events would have been far better (and cheaper) if organised as district events.

In what way would they have been better? The area would have been the same, and surely the courses wouldn't have been very different - although there would have been fewer of them, so maybe better competition in some (though not all) classes. As for cheaper, certainly the BOF levy would have been lower for a district event, but would anything else have changed? I know that, as some people have said, many clubs use their C3 event as a major source of income, but if this was changed to a C4 event, wouldn't they still need the same income? I guess what would happen is that all their C4 events would be a bit more expensive as a result, and if we saw a major drop in C3 events, presumably BOF would have to increase the C4 levy to maintain its income.

[johnloguk]

There is no doubt than some C3s would be better as C4s, note the word "some" before you jump in with examples of excellent C3s. The question has to be about quality. Are we getting a higher quality event by making it a C3, and does it really justify the extra (nearly double) cost?

How much do we value running against other people in our age class? At the JK, BOC and the odd C2 I really enjoy running my age class course, and seeing where I am in relation to my peers. But generally I get more satisfaction running a brown course, which is almost always against more people than my age class at the average C3, and longer. Courses do vary in quality, but that has more to do with the area and individual planners than whether the event is a C4 or C3.

Awk makes the good point that your C4 will suffer from a much lower attendance if there is a C3 in your "catchment area", irrespective of the quality of the C3 area.

Again let's concentrate on the consensus here, as there is a clear way ahead for orienteering, just so long as people grasp it. Put on less C3s, and make sure that the ones we do put on are quality and justify the extra cost. Put on more creative local events, playing to your strengths. If your local strength is good quality areas then put on accessible traditional events a la MADO. Otherwise, use what you've got, Park/Street-O, long-O, relays, whatever, but make it exciting and be enthusiastic about it.

So DON'T keep putting on C3s just because your club needs the income, that argument is ultimately self destructive for the sport. If we can clear £200 clear profit from putting on an "orienteering corporate awayday" I'm sure that other bigger clubs can find equally rewarding income streams. If anyone wants to know what we did for that awayday (actually it was an afternoon with only 2 helpers), then I am happy to share it.

[awk]

Totally agree John

In what way would they have been better?

Well, you cover most of them, but a couple more too:

Fewer course resulting in less compromise (regularly encountered at C3s).
Fewer classes giving more competition, also people naturally banding on ability rather than on age.
Easier to select which course is going to be enjoyable. I prefer to choose courses based on distance/area/how feel on the day, and I'm sure many others do too. It's always a gamble that the class one chooses at a C3 will actually provide what one wants (e.g. courses regularly planned shorter/longer than guidelines).
Cheaper. Take a look at entry fees. The argument that less C3s will result in more expensive C4s is possible, but I would expect that clubs will as a result put on more events (C4s are easier to put on), giving more accessible orienteering, and more revenue (even if less per event).

That's more than enough for me: better competition, better courses, cheaper fees, more orienteering, more accessible and better C3s when they are put on. Sounds good.

[Mrs H.]

Yep that's it, John and Awk have got it in a nut shell and that is what I said in my column (not letter). Play to our strengths - more cheap local events - not just CATI but for the whole spectrum to enjoy so the sport is represented in miniature. Each club should only put on a maximum of 2 C4s and 1 C3 a year amd C2s should be real high days and holidays - no more than once a month - preferably a weekend job - with one of the days only being used for all selection/ranking/any other purpose so people don't have to stay over if they don't want to.

these events would be so popular they would be very profitable and clubs would be vying to put on a good show to get allocated one - instead of them being the poison challice which they are becoming. (ie problems finding hosts for things like next year's JK)

[RJ]

Each club should only put on a maximum of 2 C4s and 1 C3 a year

Bit of a silly idea that..... In Cumbria the three main clubs BL, LOC and WCOC stage the Cumbrian Galoppen every year.... 12-14 C4s spread throughout the Lake District, and throughout the year. If other clubs have a C4 in the area then they are included as well. One year we had 15 events.

The series of C4 events is for the clubs in the Lake District, and we stage that number because it provides us with top class competition. We regularly attract between 200 and 500 people.

Keep the sport local mostly, but then have other events that are special, quality events to entice the highly motivated and committed orienteer who is prepared to travel.

[Mrs H.]

If it's such a silly idea then how come It's just trebled the number of active paid-up orienteers in my area when all you do is just talk about it?

If you stopped to think about it for a while you would realise that what you are doing is providing local events by any other name and playing to your own strengths of having abundant worthy terrain and plenty of close by clubs to share the load.

and lets face it you'd have to be pretty naff not to get C4s of quality to work in the Lakes

Others have to make do with what they'd got and make the most of it. This "let them eat cake" attitude is hardly constructive to a debate on value orienteering is it?

[roadrunner]

At the JK, BOC and the odd C2 I really enjoy running my age class course, and seeing where I am in relation to my peers. But generally I get more satisfaction running a brown course, which is almost always against more people than my age class at the average C3, and longer.

Quite so, but I'm guessing you're an M21, M35 or at the top end of one of the older age classes. For those of us of average standard in the veteran classes (I'm M50), it's a bit different: there's lots of age class competition at most C3s (M50 and M55 are usually the largest classes these days), whereas at a C4 I'd be running a blue course (about the same length as M50L) against many younger competitors, while some of the best M50s will certainly run the brown - so from that point of view, the competition at a C4 isn't as good.

The point about being able to select which course you want on the day is a good one, but on the other hand you might have to wait a long while for a start time. I guess it's down to which of these you prefer at the end of the day.

[johnloguk]

Actually I'm a final year M45, gold standard on a good day, but currently basking in the glow of being mistaken for an M21. And I thought my photo had given it away!