Advertising events under new membership scheme

[EddieH]

Considering the HUGE amount of input into mapping, electronic equipment, and often long distances for officials I am always amazed at how cheap orienteering is - on a par with a straight running race.

However I have never understood the economics. Why is it that a National event in a southern area close to the officials homes, that needs only minor mapping revision and has 1000+ entrants costs the same as say the Scottish Champs on a new area in the Highlands with 1000s (YES thousands) of officials' miles to map, plan and organise, and which gets maybe 500 competitors.

I think that some of the answer comes through the posts here. I don't blame the big clubs for what they do with their money - in fact the more they can support their club members and put on appropriate events the more they are likely to thrive and that can only be good for orienteering as a whole.

Sadly clubs with small populations both for membership, and for punters at their events cannot afford to do all these wonderful things. The huge list f benefits that Chasers members get could only ever be a wish list for clubs like mine. We cannot afford any of it - no subsidised runs for helpers, paying for mambers to doanything, and most of all almost noone charges expenses for anything.

If we did we'd go bankrupt.

I am not moaning about this - it is just a fact of life.

I want the Scotish 6 Day to go to the far North West but similar economic arguments mean that it will probably never happen.

Maybe if town Sprint O takes off with the public even we can start to generate income to be able to give more back to our members.

[Adventure Racer]

A really radical solution to that sort of issue would be to actually increase event levies, and then plow those back into subsidising less profitable events in less populated parts of the country. The point being that the 1000+ entry suggests people are happy to fork out the cost of an event there, so that's why it costs so much, whilst presumably you'd like to charge more for the Scottish Champs to cover costs, but can't because the market won't stand it. What I'm effectively suggesting here (note it's not necessarily an idea I agree with) is more centralisation of the finance behind running events.

[kedge]

Fascinating thread this, and ironically the most controversial bit with allegations of some clubs, including mine, overcharging for events, all appeared whilst I was out for the day, competing as a civilian at an Army event for which the entry fee was £1 ( subsidised, I daresay, by the taxpayer).

When I first joined the committee of my club, about 15 years ago, we had very little money and even had to borrow funds from our region to pay for the (professional) mapping of a new area for an event. Since then things have improved so that we now have a financial cushion which allows us greater peace of mind when we commit ourselves to organising larger events.

In reality this has only happened because early retirement has enabled one or two of our members to work extensively for the club as mappers charging us only expenses rather than for their time. If it had not been for their dedication and we had been reliant on professional mapping, we would not be in the position we are in today. We would not be able to offer our members many of the benefits (similar in many cases to those that Stodgetta itemises for WCH), nor would we be able to put on the range of events that we do, with several low key school/local events with entry fees of £3/£1 barely covering their costs.

The event which Mark T 'names & shames' us has an entry fee of £5. For that, the competitor will expect, and get, an up to date map, in a mapcase, overprinted with the course, electronic punching, full results available on the internet within 24 hours (and often before some competitors have returned home), portaloos and all the trappings which were until recently reserved only for large major events.

Fifteen years ago, for an entry fee of between £2.50 -£3, a competitor at a similar event would have got an out of date map, map corrections, master maps, no map bag,chemical loos (or a trench surrounded by a hessian screen) , inaccurate results on the day and typed results arriving two weeks later, if then.

For the event in question, following extensive forestry work over the last few years, the map has been extensively revised. In addition, in order to provide the SI results, we've had to dip into our reserves to replace a faulty club laptop, replace several sets of batteries in the SI boxes & repair the club tent, damaged by strong winds at a previous event. Given our geographical position, on the South coast, away from major centres of population, and with half our 'catchment area' the English Channel, we probably won't have huge numbers attending. We also acceded to a request to move the event to a less favoured day, to accomodate an major event in an adjacent region, which had only got access to their area on 'our' date. We may even struggle to make much of a 'surplus' (we don't use the word profit).

Overall, I think the competitor is getting pretty good value for money at most events, particularly at District/colour coded level & below

[SeanC]

Adventure racer wrote

"A really radical solution to that sort of issue would be to actually increase event levies, and then plow those back into subsidising less profitable events in less populated parts of the country."

Perhaps not that radical, just radical for orienteering

I think I'm right in saying that money was a key part in MADO's success? Didn't Mrs. H. get various grants to kick start the project? Now imagine how many grants a development levy of £2 on each entry could provide*. Those that believe that cheap courses are the way forward, would you be happy to pay £2 extra per run if it meant that the sport is healthy and successful when you're too old to compete? Remember that this would still mean orienteering costs have gone up less than inflation** in the past 15 years.

Of course clubs could act independantly, but for C4 and C3 events clubs complete for customers, so independant action could be self defeating.

Distributing the money could be fun though, do you distribute it on the basis of geography, need, or does every club or region get a percentage? Who decides? Plenty of potential posts on nopesport there I think.


*not juniors or beginners
**see slightly dubious analysis of government statistics 10 posts back.

[HOCOLITE]

Just a few thoughts on the subject of high costs /big balances etc.

Big bank balances- club slush funds yeah!
When you budget for an event you have fixed costs, they will usually have to be paid even if the event does not go ahead, then you have variable costs those that vary with the no. of competitors, then of course there are semi fixed costs- maps might be included here as very few clubs really can print to order, but of course that is easier to do for pre-entry events. But what happens when the events is cancelled ah yes there was a big one last year, there have been others. Bad weather foot & mouth etc. Mr Orienteer who was thinking he might go isn't going to pay out for these, those who pre-entered might get a refund and will moan like 'billio' if they don't. Every club surely builds in a contingency and I suspect this often gets used when numbers don't reach expectations. The larger the event the greater the potential loss. Who bails out the club if they don't have some money to cater for this? How much insurance cover is there? I don't know the answer to this but I'm fairly certain the bank manager isn't going to give an overdraft to a sports club with no collateral.

[ifititches]

Aren't the "less populated parts of the country' part of the reason we've ended up with the membership scheme that started off this thread? Some clubs in those areas have members who never travel outside their region, who they would have lost if some of the other schemes, with higher membership costs for all, had been pushed through.

My gut reaction to AR's suggestion would be that if there are fantastic orienteering areas in those bits of the country, I'd be very happy to pay extra levy to support the cost of great events being put on there. I wouldn't be so happy if the money was put in just to run classical regional level events on non-descript terrain for the sake of getting orienteers to travel there. On same logic, I would be happy to help subsidise high quality park event series supported in low population areas though, if the area was rich in great parks.

selfish point of view? Yes!

[HOCOLITE]

if the area was rich in great parks.

Is this Winsor Great Park then I've been led to believe that they are quite rich down there I believe one resident has a castle but I don't think she's been to any O events lately

[ifititches]

yea, that's her! She even has one (Sandringham) in one of the aforesaid "less populated" areas of the O world!

[PKJ]

From a comment some way back in this thread -

I was only talking to a mate the other night who has some innovative plans that could be great for orienteering. He wanted to air them to get other views, but specifically said he was wary of doing it on Nopesport because of the flak he might attract

To encourage creativity, could we have 'ideas-only' threads (or IdeasJams, brainstorms - call them what you like), which only contain ideas and innovations? Any comments, flak, criticisms get moderated-out.

A bit closer to topic, I agree that entering an average orienteering event is basically cheap, when you consider the resources needed to put it on. Perhaps the trick is to find simple ways of adding value, or to (subliminally) show how much effort is needed.
For me, the expense (& time) is in travelling, accommodation etc, but that's another story.

[graeme]

Why is it that a National event in a southern area close to the officials homes, that needs only minor mapping revision and has 1000+ entrants costs the same as say the Scottish Champs on a new area in the Highlands with 1000s (YES thousands) of officials' miles to map, plan and organise, and which gets maybe 500 competitors.

SOC is cheap only at the point of entering.

Basically Scots pay for it through being cheap volunteer labour/transport, in particular through cross-subsidy of mapping from the 6-day company (which pays us nothing for all the free labour we give it). We also do better then the English through the more enlightened land access laws in Scotland.

I'm sure we could safely charge higher entry fees, and this will have to happen quickly if the supply of volunteers dries up. I've never been to a Scottish champs where the entry fee was anything like the costs of travel and accommodation.

Graeme

[Gnitworp]

if the area was rich in great parks.

Is this Winsor Great Park then I've been led to believe that they are quite rich down there I believe one resident has a castle but I don't think she's been to any O events lately

Her husband won't let us in because we frightened his deer (he said) in the early 70's I think.

[awk]

How much were event fees in in 1987? I'm guessing about £3 for colour coded £7 for regional (but please correct me if you have any real data).

Your guess is somewhat off. Going back to the February 1987 issue of Compass Sport, the average adult entry fee for regional/badge events listed in the fixtures list (Feb-May) was £2.44, ranging from £2 to £3 (largely north to south).

No colour coded event prices listed, but, browsing the event adverts, there were a couple listed at £1 (one in Scotland, one the first day of Springtime in Shropshire).

As the person who noted the fact that there are clubs with large balances, please note that I also said that I didn't have a problem with that depending on how it was used. Seems a few people took the first part on board, but forgot the second.

The fact is that, whether we like it or not, orienteering is not a cheap sport, and it is certainly not going to get any cheaper. We can only control part of that cost (insignificant in some circumstances, very significant in others). We therefore need to face up to that, which is what more localised development initiatives (be they MADO, park racing, district events etc.) will do, but a fair bit of other activity won't. I've got one school club that I am liaising with (not my own!) who have expressed surprise at the paucity of accessible events over the next few months, and that is in one of the most active parts of the UK. What orienteers think is local, most of the rest of the population don't.

[Axel]

I just had a quick look through the fixtures list for the next couple of months and prices for Regional events south of Brum vary between £6 to £8, which I believe is bloody good value. Even if you have a couple of screaming brats which I have, the cost for the day out not counting travel cost and refreshments would be less than £16.

If I wasn't orienteering I would still have to pay travel cost to whatever venue we went to and then have to pay to entertain the kids anyway, eg £28 per parent at Thorpe Park. Then have to put up with the infernal racket, queing and unsavoury tracksuit obese oiks that frequent this type of place The cost of refreshment is negliable because we usually take packed meals, especially when you take the cost of fast food in some of the alternative entertainment areas. As a side thought is Wilfs getting overpriced or is it my imagination?

However I do believe some events I have been to in the last 12 months have been overpriced, charging in the region of £10 to £12 and then asking for parking fees on top. I'm sure I saw parking fees of £2 advertised recently. I have to say these have been mostly Multi-day events.

However I have a choice, I dont have to pay and I could find another sport however I would be kidding myself if I thought a new sport would cost less.

Kedge, your right the military is funded by the Government and yes we as tax payers fund the Government. However isn't it good that when you go to a wednesday military event you pay only a minimal amount of entry fee and that the thought of just a little bit of the money that they take off you in tax is being used for your pleasure.

Please enough of the Royal bashing we are at the present negotiating to remap Windsor Great Park for a military event in the spring.

In conclusion Orienteering must be value for money!!!

[awk]

Interesting comparison. Would you expect to go to Thorpe Park every Sunday? Certainly, for us, orienteering events are generally our most expensive days/weekends away. We are prepared to pay this, but then we're long term hooked.

I don't know how close you live to Thorpe Park, but for us, travel cost to most organised sports locally is 5 miles max. We can go weeks with there being no orienteering within 40 miles, and we live in one of the biggest conurbations in Britain, with relatively active orienteering clubs.

Going to the BOF fixtures list, I could find only one regional event south of Birmingham at less than £8* (Saxons in December) and none less than £7.50*; is there a more up to date list somewhere else?

* discounted rates for BOF members: otherwise increasingly talking £10+.

[Axel]

Awk,

Perhaps not to Thorpe Park every weekend but there are many other likewise entertain venues within close proximity of the M25 with equally large entrance fees and noisy, obese, unsociable types that chain smoke and discard fast food trappings everywhere but the waist bins.

Sorry for the slightly misleading quote on prices for C3 events however with BOF membership still none over 8 quid. Many other sports also charge higher entrance fees if you are a casual entrant and not a fully paid up member of that sport federation.

I think most clubs in the South strive to give value for money. However I too am surprised the Liec C3 night event mention already in this thread has an entry fee of £10 and will look in interest to see how many pay this price.

I did think of emigrating north recently however I quickly had a change of heart after I scanned the fixture list and realised how lucky we are to have some much Oing here, to dearth of events in other parts of the country.

Still reckon Oing gives excellent value for money and long may it continue to.