Advertising events under new membership scheme

[johnloguk]

Sean C said:

"John, I get the drift but I cant see that the argument is completely logical. If your club didn't put on the C3 event how would it have got the "clubs main income". Is that income only needed to put on C3 events? Surely you need some of that club income for big purchases that are needed for C5 events - tents, SI equipment etc?"

In previous years our main income has come from putting on 3xC4 events. We have always topped that up with CATIs and the Summer Series, but they have not been aimed at making money, just raising the profile and getting newcomers. We've also done odd things like "corporate awaydays", putting on an orienteering exercise for a group, and one of those made £200 clear profit. I even did an orienteering birthday party which raised a bit too . Big purchases come along rarely for a small club like ours, and only when we can afford them. We don't have our own SI kit but like Mrs H are creative in what we beg steal and borrow

I don't think either Mark or I really think that every event should be £1, and I certainly accept that there are costs involved in putting on bigger events. But we can be creative in keeping costs down, and I'd go so far as to say that there is blatant profiteering going on in some areas.

As with most Nopesport threads we have far more common ground than the areas we're quibbling over, and as usualy we've gone way off the original post

[roadrunner]

Other things that have to be costed are mapping (unless you're fortunate enough to have a club volunteer to do it, and/or areas that don't change much) and hire of Emit/SI equipment (unless the club has its own). And of course there's car parking, which is usually extra on top of the entry fees.

Whenever entry fees are discussed at my club, the usual comment is that we are cheap compared to other sports, and I believe we are - an average 10k race would cost £7 or so, and adventure racing is far more than that. The entry fees certainly don't deter people in either of those sports, so why do we feel they will in orienteering? Even if the event's only 15 miles away, you've probably spent around £4 on petrol to get there and back in any case!

[Adventure Racer]

I guess how you look at the cost all depends what you are comparing it to. If you look at it as an activity it may well be cheaper to go and play football in the park or go swimming (though at least for me, the latter is more expensive than a MADO if I go in the pool rather than Gullet Quarry ) If you look at it as a competitive event it is cheaper than most other events - worth pointing out that given how little you get for your money, triathlon is far worse value than AR!

To save repeating all the arguments, here's one we did earlier http://www.nopesport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5710

[John Morris]

You'll pardon an old man for struggling back onto a well-worn hobby-horse, but what's all this stuff about the cost of orienteering?

Again?

If you feel it's too expensive, then try looking for a another participation sport, with frequent high-quality events, meticulously-controlled by risk-aware professionals, and open to all, unconstrained by sponsors' demands or media concession.

You can't buy a round of drinks for the money, you certainly can't get a session in a gym, you can barely get across central London on the tube.

I can only suppose that you're all struggling with the HP payments on those big, beautiful motor cars that grace our parking fields.

Of course there will always be a few who genuinely struggle to afford the good things in life but the typical orienteer is a well-heeled professional in a relatively secure job (or an economic dependent of same).

If you feel that we ought to make orienteering accessible to all, irrespective of ability to pay, then I'll be impressed by your charitable impulse and curious to know how you, yes YOU, propose to fund it.

Means-tested concessions? Intra-club support schemes? Equipment hand-downs? Progressive levy rates for event surpluses?

We can't make it cheaper for the deserving poor without making it more expensive for the affluent majority. Do we have the will to do that?

Or are we just whinging?

Harrumph!

[SeanC]

I love a good quibble

Not sure about the comment re: profiteering. Orienteering clubs arent profit making companies and there are easier ways to make a few quid! John, it's great that you've spent time on fundraising, but I dont think that orienteers should expect clubs to do this to keep costs down. Perhaps other clubs with high fees dont do this and I dont think we should expect them to.

The problem I have with posts complaining about high entry costs is that fuels the traditional view of orienteering events as something that experienced orienteers should be entitled to at very low cost. Orienteers generally come from a socio-economic group where incomes have risen much higher than inflation over the past 20 years. Think what the sport could achieve if some of that extra wealth was inputted into the sport through higher fees*. Adverts to bring in more members? Most maps produced professionally so orienteers can concentrate on coaching and organising low key events? Employing fully independant RDO's that can help develop clubs beyond the narrow remit of schools development? Grants to help initiatives like the MADO initiative? Free food after events so we can all sit around and argue? Take your pick.... But none of this is going to happen whilst the expectation of event fees is that the're cheap as chips (or cheaper, the price of chips round my way.........)

*not beginners or juniors etc.

[johnloguk]

Maybe if everyone was happy to pay £23 (or whatever the latest is) for national BOF membership, then we would have enough money in the coffers for all those essential things like development etc. But it seems too many people aren't willing, so we're going to raise it from events instead.

Where I tend to disagree with Mark is that it looks to me like most people are prepared to pay more to enter events, whereas they moan like buggery when they think their BOF subs might go up a bit. Seems the wrong way round to me, and has resulted in this mish-mash of membership options, which in turn will lead to the "tensions" in the queues for registration next year that I described earlier.

Returning to the original thread, it will be interesting to see how the various fee levels are described in future event flyers. Discount or surcharge? Region or non-region? National BOF member, local BOF member or just club member?

My "profiteering" comment was based on a soap-box of mine which is "expenses". I do claim them myself but not to the extent that I heard about the other day!!

[Stodgetta]

As a committee member of a "named and shamed" club, I think I can say we realise that our district and regional events cost more than alot of other clubs, but are no more expensive than others. We did look at what other clubs were charging for their events before setting our fees last year and set them for us to have an overall annual change in bank balance of £0.

Forestry Commission are one of our land owners, but there are other land owners on Cannock Chase, too, all of whom charge, and some of our areas span several landowners, all wanting a chunk of cash for use of their area.

At a district event, £5 for a senior (£2 for a junior/student) will get you a pre-printed map (sometimes A4, sometimes A3), a map bag (sometimes A4, sometimes A3), SI punching, toilets, a red course, a choice of start time, all EOD, all paying levies etc, etc. We cannot predict numbers (we have had 230 - 450+ in the last 12 months), so have maps printed (hopefully ) to cover the highest entry we expect for each course, often resulting in 200+ maps left over from events. £5 is not a huge rise from the days of master maps and manual punching, which was not all that long ago.

If we reduced our prices to £4 a head, we'd make a loss on a regular basis, which is unsustainable in the long run. At £5, there have been no complaints, numbers have, if anything, risen, and newcommers have not been at all put off by the prices.

Our badge event does tend to be our main earner. The profits we make (from events in general, not just the regional event) are not extortionate, sometimes non-existant, and go back into the club in several ways:

- Monthly local events (same service of pre-printed, bagged maps, SI punching, range of courses, 1:1 coaching)
- Free weekly technical training for seniors and juniors over the summer
- Free Staffordshire Schools Festival for (this year) 250+ local juniors who all orienteer at school
- Grants (on application) to club members selected for international duty, tours etc where they have to pay their own contribution
- Free weekly circuit training and swimming over the winter for seniors and juniors
- Free weekly junior club for technical training and team building
- Subsidised relay runs for club members
- Subsidised runs for Compass Sport Cup, and free runs for the Yvette Baker Trophy for juniors
- Entry into the N Staffs Cross Country League over the winter (where we try and leaflet all the cars for publicity - we, well, I, don't run for fun )
- Free annual club champs

Probably not that much different to other clubs, and all of which we see as crucial for club development, both in terms of numbers and success (which in turn breeds numbers...).

As Mrs H said earlier in the thread, at our regional event last year, an orienteer did turn up (after driving their family from another region) and because they felt our prices were extortionate, didn't run at the event (but sent out their family) pulled out their own JK map and headed out onto the area for a run. This could have put our use of Cannock Chase in jeapordy beacause the land owners weren't FC, part of the area was a shooting school, part of the area was SSSI and OOB (and hence planned around), some areas are particularly prone to fissures, and none of this was marked on last years map where we had special permissions. Can you imagine the adverse local publicity if he'd fallen down a fissure on private property (whilst not covered by BOF insurance) and needed rescue? If we lose Cannock Chase, we are left with 2 areas to use (one the size of a postage stamp).

By all means be upset and complain about event entry fees (without knowing the full financial details of costs), but jeapordising the future of any club through irresponsible and poorly thought out protest behaviour is not good for the development of the sport either locally or more widely.

[Tatty]

At our Committee Meeting last night we agreed fees of £5/£2 for C4 and £2/£1 for C5 for the coming year. Our Regional event fees are more as the expenses are considerably higher and are set by the Organiser with the Club Treasurer. Last year, without the large Scandinavian presence that we hadn't known about when the budget was done, we would have made a loss.

[Red Adder]

I must say I was glad to see Stodgetta's detailed reply to Mark T's comments. Having been a club treasurer for 10 years I can fully endorse her comments.

What she didn't mentioned is the significant amount of FREE time given by volunteers, worth surely to the sport tens of thousands a year, even if computed at the national minimum wage rate. I also know that a lot of our volunteers actually subsidise the sport (and by inference other competitors) by under-claiming or even refusing to accept expenses. Without such people we wouldn't be paying just £ 4- £6 for events.

Before people start moaning at these entry fees and alleging profiteering they ought to consider (a) if they really know what the facts are with regard to financing "O" events, (b) whether they themselves are making an appropriate non-monetary contribution to the sport.

[RJ]

The great "Cost of O" debate!!

At this time of year lots of clubs will be holding their AGMs. Long discussions about increasing the annual subscriptions by 50p or £1.... However.... if you had been a late arrival at the pub (where ever the meeting is being held!) you can't have missed the several hundred thousand pounds worth of motor car in the car park belonging to same protagonists.

Perspicacious perspective!

[johnloguk]

There is a big problem with threads on Nopesport. Whereas they generate a lot of excellent discussion and thought provoking debate, they also tend to get a bit personal, and this can only put off people from posting their perfectly valid views and ideas.

Red Adder said:

"Before people start moaning at these entry fees and alleging profiteering they ought to consider (a) if they really know what the facts are with regard to financing "O" events, (b) whether they themselves are making an appropriate non-monetary contribution to the sport."

Well I was the one who mentioned profiteering, and I can certainly tell Red Adder that I have a wide knowledge of the financing of O-events, and I know exactly what I was saying when I mentioned profiteering. This is not the place to go into details, but I recently heard of a club paying out huge amounts of expenses and it made me very uncomfortable. I have also put more than my fair share of volunteer time into orienteering over the years, as have most of us that post on Nopesport, and that should have been perfectly obvious from my posts.

I can't talk for Mark, but I know he is a lovely guy who also has done his bit. Some people put perfectly reasoned arguments against his position, and that is fine, but some of the sniping that has also gone on is not right and might put him off posting again, is this what we want, is this free speech? There are lots of strong views on here, most of us have been around and paid our dues, we're meant to be on the same side aren't we?

I was only talking to a mate the other night who has some innovative plans that could be great for orienteering. He wanted to air them to get other views, but specifically said he was wary of doing it on Nopesport because of the flak he might attract.

[SeanC]

The advice I would give any nopesport newcomers who wish to avoid a hostile response is to be careful with their choice of language. Its quite reasonable to expect that members of clubs publically named and shamed should be a little annoyed and give a robust defense rather than let this impression go unchallenged!

Is "profiteering" also inappropriate language? I dont know the incident John refers to, but I cant imagine that planners and organisers are retiring early on the back of excessive expenses claims. John are you being provocative to raise the issue? It's an interesting point though and worthy of a thread on its own perhaps?

[johnloguk]

Posts are a bit like e-mails, in that we try to be succinct and end up more like a blunt instrument. The nuances of our argument get lost sometimes, leaving us open for others to jump in and pick holes.

I honestly wasn't trying to be provocative about expenses, and maybe by using the term "profiteering" I was guilty of what I accuse others of . It was a coincidence that during this thread a friend happened to tell me of some fairly frightening expense claims that had been paid out. Expenses may well be worthy of a separate thread, as they are potentially contentious.

Being in a small club we've got in the habit of rarely claiming expenses. We know what small amount of money we make and would rather plough it back than take our share, no matter how reasonable and deserved that share is. I know that many orienteers are the same. I also fully accept that some people put in so much effort, especially to big events, that there is no way they could survive without claiming. It can be quite embarrassing too, not knowing what the rates or conventions are for claiming, especially when several clubs are involved. The different accepted practice are very stark sometimes. I know that BOF, the regions and most clubs, have written down their expenses rates, but the rate of take up is variable.

[Fat and Forty]

Mark,

If you think Orienteering is expensive try the following forthcoming events.

Hellrunner (Longmoor) £20.00
Dynamic Adventure £35.00
Henly Half Marathon £12.50 (£20.00 EOD)

You do get a map with Dynamic Adenture and 8hrs of exercise (£4.38 per hour is I believe reasonable value)
As Adventure Racer said don't even think about triathlon or anything else involving bikes.

[awk]

Profiteering may have been provocative, but when I was working for BOF I was very aware of clubs who were sitting on substantial (5 figure) bank balances. Clubs were, and I suspect still are, where the real money is in orienteering. I've not got a problem with that, depending on how a club uses that money. It takes quite a bit to do decent development work after all.

On the entry fee front, I don't have a lot of problems either with the cost of district events. However, I do wonder what extra I get when entering regional events, and it is I think pertinent that a number of people talk about the club 'making money' on its C3s. In fact (and I know this is another soapbox!) I quite often feel I get less at C3s: courses are more compromised, and there's less of a competition. You do take your chances at a C4 with the experience of a planner (and, indeed, controller), but given the planning standards I've encountered at regional and even national events in recent times, that's not such a big thing anymore.

Incidentally, to those who reckon the sport is cheap, yes it maybe for many professionals, but it is no longer so for a family. Whilst the entry fee is only a part of the expense, the overall cost of orienteering has spiralled, and I know of quite a number who have cut back partially or totally - we certainly did for quite a while. But then, John M, we don't go out drinking more than once in a blue moon, I don't subscribe to a gym, and don't live in London (it costs £2.30 return for me to get into the centre of Leeds by train from 12 miles out).; my running comes free, as does my cycling (except for spares!), my table tennis £2 per weekly session, my aerobics/circuit session £2.50 per week, the latter two with fully qualified coaches. I'm not saying that orienteering is unnecessarily expensive, but it is not cheap and needs to recognise that. Equally, I do think there needs to be a major think about how our sport is organised, when there are many weeks when district and other local events are not reasonably accessible, with a calendar overrun with regional and national level events.

I love orienteering, and am extremely unlikely to give it up, but am under no illusions that it's the amongst the most expensive activites we do.