Advertising events under new membership scheme

[Mrs H.]

Crikey I had to go back and look at what I'd said! By the way Mark it's a column, not a letter.
I agree there is much variation - I see Potoc and BOK are charging £6 for district events this autumn.

But

Other factors do come in to play and are things you simply cannot take a national approach to. The chief of these being land use charges. I charge £3/£1 for MADO events with free SI hire and bagged over printed maps. I have just ben asked for £2 per competitor land use for one event irrespective of age. As one of our friends says "Do the Math". How do I find money for toilet hire, map printing and publicity out of that (trust me I will but - but that is by the way )

I understand WCH have high land use charges on their chief area Cannock chase - i don't know the details - but what else are they to do but pass this on to their costumers (ha ha that was meant to say customers - but have you seen what some of them are wearing lately!)- if people don't like it they will vote with their feet as you are doing. The point in my column was that as organising clubs we should stop competing against each other for the same market - develop up our own more local market and met their needs while stream-lining the top end of the system to make high profile events more viable and popular.

It should be a local sport for local people - most of the time.

[Mark T]

"I have just been asked for £2 per competitor land use for one event irrespective of age."

Tell the land owner you will no longer use the area and stick by it, we want to run on it not buy it off them for God's sake! Same goes for Cannock Chase £10 to run, no way! Protest, vote with your feet, if people don't go the prices have to drop. Competitor numbers are in decline and it's all down to cost of events as you said in your letter.

Somehow I just knew the old toilet and land access fees would crop up!!

[SeanC]

Two interesting questions:

1) How much should our sport cost?
2) How should we collect the money?

I'm not sure what your disagreeing with Mark, the increase fees we pay BOF or the mechanism for collecting the money. Ignoring the issue of collection mechanism I'd have to say that £5 for a race where people have spent tens or sometimes hundreds of hours mapping, planning, organising and controlling, plus permission to trample all over some the best countryside in Britain sounds pretty cheap to me. Plus this covers all the back up costs of equipment, insurance, websites, communication, publicity and organising the sport at all the various levels.

There's been a big drop in membership over the past 10 years even though entry costs have been cheap. Remembering all the development related posts I've read here in the past year or so the following reasons for the decline have been mooted

- not enough publicity
- not enough coaching for beginners
- inappropriate course lengths and difficulties
- not much social activities after the event
- funny looking kit
- not enough local events
- events not catering for families with young children

I cant remember cost mentioned as a particularly significant factor.

The question is, would a low cost sport help or hinder the development of the sport and address some of the problems listed above? More volunteers is an alternative, but are they easier to find than extra money? Alternatively low cost might mean lower quality, but would that deter more orienteers than higher costs?

Higher costs will inevitably deter some and I wouldnt wish Mark to stop orienteering because of increased fees, but viewing the sport as a business for a minute, would the higher quality that should occur* generate more business than would be lost by some people being unwilling to pay increased fees? Perhaps BOF could commission a study to find out what the answer is, but they'd have to find the money, or a volunteer.

* I'm talking on a theoretical level here, and not thinking about whether or not BOF provides value for money.

[Adventure Racer]

Tell the land owner you will no longer use the area and stick by it, we want to run on it not buy it off them for God's sake! Same goes for Cannock Chase £10 to run, no way! Protest, vote with your feet, if people don't go the prices have to drop.

You are joking aren't you? Quick reality check here - landowners don't see having O events on their land as big money making opportunities. Land prices aren't driven by the amount of money you can make by running O events on them. The only result of such a course of action would be no orienteering areas.

Somehow I just knew the old toilet and land access fees would crop up!!

That might just be because they have to be introduced into any rational discussion about event fees.

[Mrs H.]

Column, Mark, column not letter

I am not sure I am so well off for quality areas that I can afford to be so choosey - and I suspect that many clubs - particularly in the Midlands - are in the same boat - we have to use what is available to us to hold local events on. I have been very lucky (or perhaps I should say I have worked bloody hard) to find money from other sources to pay for all those extra as[pects of the sport which Sean mentions - they don't pay for themselves.

If you knew the old toilet and alnd access fe would crop up then why didn't you cover it your first post - are you having a bit of a laff?

BTW you weren't the person who turned up at the WCH event refused to pay and then went out on an old map from another event which covered areas without permission thereby endangerouring all future access were you?

[Mark T]

So how come some clubs charge £1 and some £5 to basically run on a FC area, surely the same cost to land owner are involved? Or are you saying the club charging £5 are providing toilets with gold door knobs!! I never saw any difference apart from the cost and I know loads of people who have left the sport because it costs too much. Their son or daughter can play football for 50p all morning or swim for two hours for £1 yet go orienteering and they get hit with a £2 - £4 bill for a twenty minute run. Drop the prices and watch people return to the sport, get your club to try it and see what happens.

[Adventure Racer]

at Mark suggesting to Mrs H. what she should try to get people to return to orienteering.

[SeanC]

"Drop the prices and watch people return to the sport, get your club to try it and see what happens."

I'm willing to bet that even if we paid people to go orienteering we wouldnt see more members whilst:

- non orienteers dont know where and when our events are

- we dont make much effort to explain to newcomers how to orienteer

plus all the other stuff etc etc....

[Mrs H.]

I honestly don't know how a club can give an adult run for £1 - as the BOF levy on an adult run is £1.10. even accounting for the levy exemption of £50 and no toilets the maps must have cost next to nothing I provide the best value I can manage and all my proceeds go on publcity and anything left over is spent on a few prizes at the end of the season. It is not in my remit to make a profit - but clubs do need to make a profit to invest in other stuff, new mapping, replacement equipment etc

[johnloguk]

Our club Summer Series has charged £1 for the last 2 years, same fee for adults as kids by the way. We also only charge per map not per person, so beginners can go round in a group and share a map if they like. Before that we only charged 50p per person, then our treasurer started to get a bit twitchy because we "weren't generating enough income streams"! Actually he was only being semi-serious and his knowledge alone made us lots of money simply by using better bank accounts, but that is by the by.

These summer evening events are now almost always on pre-marked maps, specially updated and printed for the event, and sometimes we even throw in SI punching at no extra charge. Our neighbours HALO put on a brilliant summer league called the Poacher, and they still only charge 60p per person. They always have pre-marked maps and next year will be totally SI punching as well for the same fees! Both our summer leagues get great attendances and are our main source of new members.

Our club's main income this year was when we hosted the EM Champs, our first C3 ever. It was a good event and got some praise, but ironically it was on an area that we have had just as much fun on for a quid! You don't get portaloos for a quid of course, and you don't get an 11km course, but otherwise you might struggle to notice much difference.

[Mrs H.]

Yes it would be perfectly possibly if you are prepared to subsidise the event from other areas in the club and didn't exceed the £50 exemption or have land charges too often - what kind of numbers per event are you talking about? - I managed to do that with the Malvern Initiative (pre MADO Mini-League) which was £1 per run (single or group, adult of junior) and probably broke even on the events at the end of the Initiative by virtue of the fact that we printed the maps ourselves at cost (paper and ink).

BUT

I would not have been able to advertise said events and got the people in in the first place at that cost (or paid the levy let alone any land charges/toilet hire etc). Pay for new mapping or even think about hard ware and prizes.

My point is - it is not an independentally sustainable practise. If everyone only ever goes to £1 events and nothing else the sport will disappear up it's own back side as it fails to be able to replace old equipment, map and re-map areas and meet other rising costs and advertise its events to new people. there has to be a balance.


Subsidising developmental events is a perfectly legitimate way for clubs to spend their money - but they have to have some money first to spend - how are they going to get it - you yourself said it was a C3 which was the main fund raiser last year - how long could you go on offering such cheap C5s without a significantly better percentage of return on other events?[/b]

[johnloguk]

Sorry Mrs H I didn't mean to give the impression that our C3 subsidised the Summer Series, the latter actually made a profit entirely on it's own. Maximum attendance was 75 paying punters, nearer 100 actual bodies, with an average nearer 40. Our main advantage, and I'm whispering now , is that several of our areas are Council owned and they don't charge a levy. Hopefully none of them is lurking or they'll start getting ideas.

We've never yet paid for an advert for our events. We usually find that an e-mail to the local press gets them interested and an article usually follows. I've been to the local radio station and done interviews in the past, also did a live interview via mobile phone while putting kites out once! Event planners tend to claim minimal expenses too, which helps.

I don't think most of us begrudge paying up to £10 for a really quality event on top terrain, but I agree with Mark that there are some events out there that just aren't value for money. When we only pay £1 we would be hard pushed to start moaning, but once we're a tenner down I think we have every right to if things aren't spot on.

[HOCOLITE]

So how come some clubs charge £1 and some £5 to basically run on a FC area, surely the same cost to land owner are involved? Or are you saying the club charging £5 are providing toilets with gold door knobs!! I never saw any difference apart from the cost and I know loads of people who have left the sport because it costs too much. Their son or daughter can play football for 50p all morning or swim for two hours for £1 yet go orienteering and they get hit with a £2 - £4 bill for a twenty minute run. Drop the prices and watch people return to the sport, get your club to try it and see what happens.

Two Points.
1. Your comment re FC areas, quite often an area that we believe to be FC has other landowners attached therefore you can't generalise.
2. Aren't you the chap that travelled round the country to get in as many O events as possible in a year. If so I'm sure your travel costs amount to much more than the events themselves.
You are right however that 'the market will determine if the price is right', greedy landowners have to be negotiated with and if you go to them with the sums generally they see reason because no money is woprse than some money. Sometimes though good publicity for the landowner will help.

[SeanC]

John, I get the drift but I cant see that the argument is completely logical. If your club didn't put on the C3 event how would it have got the "clubs main income". Is that income only needed to put on C3 events? Surely you need some of that club income for big purchases that are needed for C5 events - tents, SI equipment etc?

Interesting to note the emphasis on publicity again. Mrs. H pays for additional publicity, I wonder if that would get even more newcomers to your events?

[Mrs H.]

I concede the point to you and Mark that it is possible to run a series of events for £1 a throw under certain circumstances - those chiefly being that there is no land use charge, the area has already been mapped and is recently up to date, and the club already has access to paid for equipment. (as I said before I have actually done it myself)

But I stand by my point

it is not an independentally sustainable practise. If everyone only ever goes to £1 events and nothing else the sport will disappear up it's own back side as it fails to be able to replace old equipment, map and re-map areas and meet other rising costs and advertise its events to new people. there has to be a balance.

And I agree with you John - a quality major should be worth the money