Osteopath or homeopath?

[Adventure Racer]

Now can someone explain how immunisation works so I can decide whether to ask for flu vaccinations this winter?

By using something with active ingredients in rather than water.

[johnloguk]

I use an aromatherapy spray, made from essential oils of lavendar and camomile, when I can't sleep. It may not be directly connected to injuries, but if you can't sleep you can't run.

[Kitch]

By using something with active ingredients in rather than water.

inative ingredients actually,
otherwise you'd get the flu

[Mrs H.]

I think there is some confusion here which is what is leading to a bit of a misunderstanding. As I understand it Homeopathy strictly speaking relies on the principle of the "memory of water" - the massive dillusion of tinctures until nothing of the original active ingredient remains.

I think a lot of people would have problems with the credibility of this.

But it also seems to me that the term homeopathy is increasingly applied to herbal and other therapies which may also use a like for like prinicple - but not the dillusion thing.

Quick edit here as I don't seem to have spelled it out. the examples AndyO gave were not Homeopathic as such but herbal which we now know to have many scientific benefits like aspirin etc- we don't know what treatments JAB was giving her children which proved effective but I bet they were more herbal based than homeopathic



Lavendar and Camomile are well known as aids to sleep - i drink Camomile at bed time - it is apparently a muscle relaxant rather than a sedative which is perhaps where the lavendar comes in _ hops also promote sleep. ( but I don't know whether in liquid form)

I am quite sure that the elder Miss H. gained some benefit from pollen tablets and local honey - plus selenium in the recent improvements she has experienced with her hay fever.

I have enjoyed some benefits from chiropracty(!) although I can't say it was an enjoyable experience and neither was the deep muscle sports massage I had after repeatedly doing my calf muscle last year - but it did the trick.

I spotted your retail therapy Harley and had a laugh - it doesn't work for me I feel guilty about the money - i find holiday therapy much more effective!

Oh yes - and I'm a great believer in cod liver oil and cold water bathing to boost you immune system - red wine for just about everything - and one more tip - never ever weigh your self under the influence of a high pressure weather system - you don't want all those extra millibars pressing down on your shoulders do you

[Adventure Racer]

inative ingredients actually,
otherwise you'd get the flu

If you're talking about vaccination rather than immunisation, then not necessarily the case given the derivation of the word

[Suzy R Sopham]

AndyO; the main question you should be asking yourself is "Do I need a flu vaccine?"

'Flu is not normally life threatening for healthy people, and the occasional bout of 'flu gives better long term protection than a flu vaccination.
The risk groups recommended to be offered 'flu immunisation include all people aged 65 years and over, those with chronic respiratory or heart disease, renal disease or diabetes mellitus and those who are immunocompromised. It is also for those living in long stay residential accommodation.
i.e.All those in whom the disease is more likely to be a serious illness.

[graeme]

I think there is some confusion here which is what is leading to a bit of a misunderstanding. As I understand it Homeopathy strictly speaking relies on the principle of the "memory of water" - the massive dillusion of tinctures until nothing of the original active ingredient remains.

Mmm, well strictly homeopathy a treatment involving giving something which, in larger dose, causes the ailment itself. Derived from (the same) and (affliction). Didn't they teach you classics at school?

Graeme

[Mrs H.]

I.m not sure where we are disagreeing - obviously we are talking about treating like with like. The original precept being that if you gave a heallthy person the same preparation you would make them ill with the complaint you were trying to cure in the patient. According to the British Homoepathic ASSociation. Homeopathy was first described by Dr Strangesounding-Germanname who observed the following

How can a medicine be more effective in a greater dilution? Indeed, many homeopathic preparations have been subjected to so many stages of this process that it is highly unlikely that any single molecules of the original substance remain.

Current research is focusing on the ability of water to retain an imprint of substances which have been dissolved in it.

Perhaps he didn't do classics either. My point was actyally that AndyO had described herbal therapies not homeopathy.

[Suzy R Sopham]

If you follow the homeopathetic logic:

If you take Whiskey in large amounts it has a serious reation on the body - it can be lethal, so if you drown your whiskey with water , and even "sucuss it"(take a small amount of a raw material and dilute it with water and shake it vigorously by hand. Then you take a small portion of that and dilute it again with water and shake it by hand again) homeopaths belive that it will become stronger and more powerful ("potentization").

According to them the more it is potentized the deeper it acts, the longer it acts and the fewer number of doses are required. Fantastic - a bottle of Glenmorangie may just last me a week now!

[Gross]

whiskey Glenmorangie may just last me a week now!

But you can't compare that Irish & American stuff with the Water of Life!!!!!

[AndyO]

Suzy R Sopham wrote "If you follow the homeopathetic logic..." - and then doesn't. I doubt you'll find any mention in homeopathic texts of diluting alcoholic drink to make it stronger. But if you do, then I fully suspect that many members of the medical "profession" will be instantly converted!

[Ed]

Quick edit here as I don't seem to have spelled it out. the examples AndyO gave were not Homeopathic as such but herbal

I think you didn't read carefully enough:

My 1st Aid kit always contains Arnica 30c tablets in case of injury. (my italics)

which sounds pretty homeopathic to me: let's see what wikipedia has to say about 30c homeopathic "remedies":

The most characteristic—and controversial—principle of homeopathy is that the potency of a remedy can be enhanced (and the side-effects diminished) by dilution, in a procedure known as dynamization or potentization. Liquids are progressively diluted (with water, or alcohol) and shaken by ten hard strikes against an elastic body (succussion)...

The dilution factor at each stage is traditionally 1:10 ('D' or 'X' potencies) or 1:100 ('C' potencies). Hahnemann advocated 30C dilutions for most purposes, i.e. dilution by a factor of 100^30 = 10^60. As Avogadro's number is only 6.02 × 10^23 particles/mole, the chance of any molecule of the original substance being present in a 15C solution is small, and it is extremely unlikely that one molecule of the original solution would be present in a 30C dilution. For a perspective on these numbers, there are in the order of 10^32 molecules of water in an Olympic size swimming pool; to expect to get one molecule of a 15C solution, one would need to take 1% of the volume of such a pool, or roughly 25 metric tons of water. Thus, homeopathic remedies of a high "potency" contain, with overwhelming probability, only water. Practitioners of homeopathy believe that this water retains some 'essential property' of one of the substances that it has contacted in the past.

personally I reckon it's the ten hard strikes against an elastic body which give that all important "scientific" "credibility" to it. use of a homeopathic practictioner's head for this stage is probably to be recommended.

I've nothing against arnica as a herbal remedy: I've got a cream with (from memory) about 2.5% arnica which empirically does seem to help ease bruising and swelling, but 30c homeopathic arnica tablets are going to be as much use as a chocolate carving knife.

[Mrs H.]

Mmm - I see what you mean - given that Arnica is a time honoured herbal remedy it beats me why anyone would want to take a omeopathic version of it - but even so - I don't quite see where the " treating like with like" element comes into that particular example - Does Arnica cause bruising in un-bruised people? Only if you hit them with the tube i suspect.

Personally I would not part with good money for a homeopathic remedy whereas i think there may be a lot of mileage in some herbal remedies.

[Suzy R Sopham]

Mrs H, Arnica montana, when not diluted for a homeopathic remedy (i.e in it's pure state) is also known as the poisonous plant Loepard's Bane or wolf's bane. The symptoms are skin irritation upon contact. After ingestion, heart palpitation, vomiting, drowsiness, shortness of breath, and coma in children.
As a herbal remedy, I can see how it would work, by local skin irritation causing increased blood supply to the area, and thus aiding rapid dissolution of the bruising. As for homeopathetically - waste of money!

[SeanC]

An entertaining debate with strong opinions on both sides!

I've used osteopaths and physiotherapists for my dodgy back (which keeps me orienteering). Over the years the treatments they give seem to be becoming very similar.

More alternative treatments such as herbal remidies and homeopathy I personally dont trust. I wonder if there are a number of people involved in the more alternative therapies that are just crooks and are exploiting the fact that the effectiveness of the treatment cannot be scientifically proven? An ex landlord of mine used to spend £150 a month on various herbal remidies for tiredness, sleep problems etc. He would ring the herbal thearapist saying his symptoms hadnt improved, and would be given a different combination of pills. To me he just seemed depressed. I would prescribe orienteering! Was the herbal therapist genuine or just out to exploit this vunerable man? At least with the NHS, the drug companies have to prove the effectiveness of the treatment before they are allowed to exploit us!